could someone break down DAT for me?

Simple question. Could someone break down the whole concept of DAT in laymen’s terms? All I know about DAT is from the numerous references from well known producers, suggesting that they put their song on ‘dat’, or just give me the ‘dat’ tape, ...etc. Is this still the standard way of storing music files?

My toys include the 2000xl, vs880(still learning) and tampa mic pre/compressor.

OR..if you guys don’t use DAT..could you please enlighten a newcomer to the group on how you guys ultimately store your songs. Right now all of my MPC tracks are on multiple hard disks..and im thinkin to myself..there must be a better way than this?

-ed ntiri

That better way is called CDRW/CDR. That's the standard now. DAT is dead.... RIP DAT.. Get a burner or if you already have a burner then cool.. Put it to use and store/save your music. When you render/burn each track do it as WAV on the CDRW/CDR and then you can take it anywhere to any studio, MAC or PC and it will always work when they place it in a track..

Yo Bena, Lamp is right man. But, as you spoke of in the other thread, your coping that VS880 right? Well, although it's more expensive than the conventional burner, you should cop the burner that they make specificaly for the VS. You are probably aware of the difference between audio and data, right? See, you can 2 track the mix to CD, like a regular burner, but also, after you multitrack your beats in the VS, you could burn the data as a CD-ROM. Like, instead of just your MPC files on a ZIP disk, now you got your mixed session loops on CD ROM. Of course, you can only multitrack 8 sounds in a session, because the VS gives you 8 tracks. But then, you can even just do your stereo mix (2 tracks only) out the MPC, and you got that VS with the burner to put the shine on it (efx, compression, etc) before you burn an audio CD.

DATs are good for live performance, because they are harder to break in a live situation that a CD player, and there is no skipping cause it's digital tape. Thats what the acronymn is: D igital A udio T ape ...but the error rate when recording a DAT is much higher than on CD-R. And often, you don't pick up on those errors untill later when it's too late. for the record, DAT is not dead. Because of the rediculous amount of bootlegging that goes on, many pro studios now opt for DAT mixes only at the end of the session. Some won't allow ANY cds burned in a session. Just ONE dat tape as the master and that's it. It's because everyone has a CD burner, and if one gets out, well, it's a wrap. But DAT players are more scarce, and it's safer to have that tape than a CD floating around for anyone to jack.

Cop the VS Burner tho'. I just priced it at www.sweetwater.com
It lists at $345. That's about what you would pay for a professional, standalone, realtime audio burner, but since you got the 880, you got alot more options with the Roland burner. If you want to go used, you could do that too, but you can probably get it new even cheaper that the listed price.

i also have a VS880, i record and store some of my music on the VS,

it's midi'ed up to my mpc ,so all i have to do is set the tempo on the VS and record my tracks with effects and then when done i transfer to mini disc and up load it to my computer threw my line in on my sound card.

you shpuld learn more about that VS it's a very powerful piece too.

i still don't kno all of it , but i got most of the features down. still learning my self.

I never thought of it that way, being harder to steal, that's true huh..

I also have a Mini-Disc that I used to back in the day to store my stuff. I used the optical in/out on my audigy to record and playback. It was crystal clear..

Save everything...

Thanks for the response….very informative as usual. However being a true beginner, I do have a few more questions/clarifications in terms of saving data. Bare with me…Im really moving almost too fast(love playin with this sh*t, and im trying to fully understand everything.

Right now, from what lampdog said, my understanding is this: currently, I program my beats, etc etc….and save .APS files and .ALL. files onto hard disk. So basically, I should be doing this same thing, but onto CDR? My first question, is then how exactly would I go about doing this if I don’t have a CD burner hooked up to the MPC. I have to MIDI record each track onto my VS…lets say I have 7 tracks on the MPC, ..each track will end up on its own track on the VS…and then burn each .wav file individually from the vs burner? How exactly does this work. For example, I’m sure a CDR isn’t a bunch of wav files, that I have to eventually reprogram and re-track, I should be burning some type of .ALL file too, Im sure this can be done, just wanted to know what type of file it is (other than .wav or .snd) that is being burned. Please clarify for a beginner. Thanks yall.

-bena

so much confusion. im sorry..what I meant was will I be recording wav. files that represent an entire track looped?, or individual wav files. For ex…will your CDR have on it ‘track 1.wav’, track2.wav’, …. thanks.

you got me all confused...

i don't think it should be so complicated.

do you have a zip drive mine is hooked up to my mpc so everything i need is in there i just use the VS to record a full song when ready then do mastering with the VS also.

if your lookin to just save tracks then get azip this makes life eeEEZZzzy

you’re right…I think a zip might be a good move. I guess what I was asking (ive barely started using my vs880), is …do you record each track individually onto all of the tracks on the VS?, and edit your song like that?, OR do you just record the entire song onto 1 or 2 tracks( stereo), and use the rest of the tracks for vocals and what not. I assumed the latter, but I got confused when people started talking about midi between mpc and vs.

bena

I don't have a VS so I can't answer how you record and save on there..
Sorry about that. But when I record into my PC I do each track into the PC (Vegas Video) and render/save the whole track as wav.. I do each track.. I burn those tracks as WAV to the CDR.

On the MPC I save ALL, APS and all the samples into the same directory
on my ZIP and burn to a CDRW just for storage in case my ZIP or MPC dies or some unkown error you know what I'm saying...

Bena, to clarify a little: I brought up the difference between audio and data, but of course, they cross boundaries. For instance, digital audio on a CD or in an MPC sample is, at most, two audio tracks. The digital data on the CD is interpeted at playback as audio only. That is, there are no separate data files for right and left, etc. In a ZIP disk, or CD-ROM (not CD audio), you are storing files. That is, they are audio files as well, but not interpretable for immediate playback by consumer devices. Now, given that, look at what the VS880 is doing. You would use this to of course record songs. Now, instead of the data in your MPC programs, you're recording the audio out of the MPC to the VS. Now, in the VS, you've got audio you can play back, but in it's own data format. If you were to burn a CD ROM (data only) from the VS at that point, you would have FILES on the disk. Obviously, these won't playback in a consumer device. You could decipher the .wav files or whatever with a CD-ROM hooked to your sampler, or with the computer, or VS again. BUT, if you record your tracks (whether stereo or multitrack) and mix them down in the VS, your going to want to play that in a regular format, so now you want to burn an audio CD from the VS to the burner. As an AUDIO cd, you now have playable stereo mixes. That's why I suggest the burner that Roland makes for the VS series. Because not only can you save your multitracked audio FILES from the VS880 as data CD-ROMs, but after mixing inside the recorder, then you can burn AUDIO cds as well, with finished stereo CDs as demos, beat CDs, whatever.

Also, get a ZIP 250 for your MPC. Makes sure it's a SCSI 1 type ZIP if you have a 2000, or a SCSI 2 type if you have the 2000XL. Iomega doesn't sell SCSI ZIP drives in stores anymore, but I think you can get one direct or from a computer catalog, and certainly used on ebay or something. ZIPs save about 5 times faster than floppy, and of course you can fit tons more data on the ZIP. Plus, you want the more solid technology of the ZIP, so you don't lose beats and files on the floppys due to errors.

So here goes: Save your programs and .ALL sequences from the MPC to the ZIP. Then, when you record beats or songs to the VS. Then, you save the data in the recorder to VS CD-ROM. Then, when you've mixed a joint successfully, you burn it to CD as audio.

You want to save at every step in this fashion, so you have everything archived in it's latest form. The end form is of course an audio CD, but then if you hear your mix later, and don't like it, you just load the ROM version you saved from the VS back into the recorder, and remix it, add more tracks, or whatever. If you get a stereo realtime burner, minidisk recorder, or high quality tape deck, your end result will only be the stereo mixes out of the VS. When your recorder gets full of data, you won't be able to back it up to make space. Get a SCSI ZIP 250 for your MPC, and the Roland VS series burner. You won't be disappointed.

Oh, I forgot about the other question: stereo tracking versus multitracking. Remember the talk about the 4 track? Well, the concept applies to any multitrack format. Whether you got 4 or 24 or 96 tracks, when you run out of tracks, you start 'bouncing'. Now, to make a quick joint, or to start out, I would just mix in a mixing board, then go stereo out of that into two channels on the VS. Then you got 6 channels left for vocals. BUT, if you want to have more flexibilty, or you don't have an outboard mixer, you start bouncing. You would record your first pass, say, all the drum sounds indepedantly, on tracks 1-6. Track 1, kick. Track two, snare. Three, hi hats, etc. Then, mix them in the VS till you like the result, and 'bounce' them (or re-record internally) to tracks 7 & 8, as a stereo drum mix. Then, for example, do the same thing with the samples that make up the main instruments. Lets say you got a bunch of guitar chops as samples, some bassline tones played out, etc. Use tracks 1-4 to record those as separate as possible. Then, again, bounce, but to tracks 5 & 6. Now, you've got the music on a stereo set, and the percussion on a stereo set. Now, mix those two levels, and bounce the result to tracks one and two. Now you got your six tracks, 3-8, ready to record over, still left for vocals or more instruments, or whatever. You have premixed the beat a little more than if you just went straight stereo. Also, this lets you bounce those steps with independant effects, while a strait stereo mix to start out would limit that ability, and you would use effects on the overall beat. Likewise, the bounce thing is great for layering stacked vocals, choruses, etc. like we talked about in the 4 track discussion. Of course, when I'm making a beat CD, I may just lay a bunch of the stereo mixes right out the MPC, and just compress and eq the stereo mixes in the VS and burn the CD for reference. The choice is to be made on how important separating your souns may be for the particular project. The beat may sound rediculously good straight out of the MPC in stereo , and that's fine. But you want to keep the options open. You will come up on all the routing issues and options with the VS880 as you get iller and iller. Do test projects. Read the manual on the toilet, on the way to work, anywhere you can. Get everyone you can find with a VS to tutor you. Soon, you will be syncing your MPC and VS for multiple passes, and making 24 track bounced session with virtual vocal tracks and automated mixdowns!! If you mention these issues, and they want to offer you a 'simpler' solution, then don't F wit em'! Go find someone who knows what they are talking about. These concepts are the right way to do it, and as my teacher always told me, you gotta learn convention before you really know how to defy convention. Have fun man, you are well on your way. Like Mesh told you, you could intern and apply each step of knowledge to your home setup. the theory is all similar, the only difference is how much gear you have. And now, you have what you need.

TRUPRO that was good info man .

it really open me up to more ideas

You would record your first pass, say, all the drum sounds indepedantly, on tracks 1-6. Track 1, kick. Track two, snare. Three, hi hats, etc. Then, mix them in the VS till you like the result

do you use the effects in the VS or do you mix it into the VS with an efx(meaning wet)

Actually, it's all about the vibe of the song, and how deep I am going with the project. Of course, the more decisions you make during tracking, the less you have to make, and have theoption to make, later. I almost never record anything to 'tape' (or hardisk recorder) with reverb on it. This is for obvious reasons, mostly because reverb is usually my last mix step before I make the un-mastered two track (called 'printing' a mix). There are two main reasons why I would ever go to tape with an effect at all. 1, for the performance aspect. For instance, if a synth part comes preset or I edit it with some kind of advanced delay or effect out of the unit, or in my recorder, I may just lay it to tape as-is. This is because the effects in that synth patch may be whats giving it a particular rhythm or style, and it's really effecting how I play that instrument in the performance aspect. To take that delay off would take away the feel of the original sound. BUT BE CAREFULL. Let's say I'm tracking to protools or a VS880, and my goal is to get tracks of my four-bar loop recorded to hard disk as audio. If I lay down a part with delay pre-recorded, when I chop it to loop, it's gonna cut that delay off, and sound crappy. If it's applyed later, the delay continues fluently as a live effect while the actual audio file loops back around. If I really want to lay a joint with delays or reverbs that I can't or don;t want to duplicate at mixdown, I record those parts for longer than the actual loop, so they continue till the tail of the delay or reverb runs out naturally. Then, instead of editing the regions like the rest of the tracks, I do those ones manually, and fade the ends out. It takes longer to edit, but then I got a natural decay instead of a chopped ending. Bottom line for me tho is, I wanna leave as much option open for later at mixdown, instead of going to tape with effects. But again, two good reasons why you may do this: 1, you are running out of effects. This decision gets made when my protools plugins run out of system recource, or you VS runs out of effects chip recources, etc. Make that decision when most of the song is mixd well, so you know you actually like a particular reverb in the mix before commiting to recording it as audio. It's really tough for me to commit to a reverb, because if I liked it at first, later I may realize that it makes the track, and thus the overall song, sound horrible. I find what works better, if I ran out of effects, is to put a tiny bit of reverb on the entire mix, after limiting, but before EQ. This little bit will help blend S%#t together. You can keep it as a live stereo effect since you are saving recources, and be able to constantly adjust it later. Reason 2 to print effects to tape? The vibe, man. Sometimes something strikes you and you like, "do I really want to robotically add feeling later on, or does this shit sound fantasic right now? Sometimes when you do everything in incrementally formated ways, your sound can come out too clean and perfect, and end up sounding stale. This being said, I am a controll freak and RARELY put effects to tape, especially reverb. But when you are good at mixing, you can commit to these decisions before mixdown and get away with it, especially if it really makes a perticular instrument the heart of the track.

Long winded as usual, but I'm high on coffee, and I like to be thorough.

TruPro,

You are a very knowledgeable about your craft. check it out...I appreciate all of your advice. There definitely is a LOT of basic info I just did not know, and that I’m continuing to learn. As for the VS...remember that I just got it!, so I got my hands on this instructional video for it, and Im just going to find time to watch that, scrutinize the manual and when I get settled with this seemingly complex piece of standalone recording machinery, I’m definitely going to holler with more questions/advice.

Also, I’ve been making more complete beats on the MPC (ever since I got my power back…hurricane Isabelle was vicious in my neighborhood), with more samples, using more memory, etc….and I’m now realizing that it is rather bootleg the way I save all of my beats on floppy disks. very amateur…but off top…how much are zip drives compatible with the MPC2000xl going for? LOL..I just copped that tampa mic pre, and the vs…and Im about to take this trip to Barcelona, so money is kinda hurtin’ right now. The CD add on and the zip drive are purely luxery items to me right now…like early wishlist items for the Xmas list.

Also, that’s pretty clever, mixing down tracks in the VS and then bouncing them into 1 or 2 tracks. As soon as I figure out how to do it..Im sure I’ll be utilizing that…although I don’t see why it cant just be done in the MPC just the same (minus the effects I gues).

one