Replaying samples with no music theory training...

Exatcly right...
You cannot Come from a standpoint of making beats from samples and just hope to hop in a jazz session where there callin out there change ups 4 bars ahead.
Unless u study the music from all aspects...
Very tru that Music is a very non trained thing , but at the same time it is....
Virtouso's Have been playin piano since 11... It might not look like training when there that good but every time you play your training your muscles to reflex easier without less and less constriction and its almost muscle memory...after 4 years your good, take 30 yrs of piano or more...Its like being blindfolded in front of the piano.. how many can right away just play, How many take time to hear the notes then they can play. How many just cant play..

Producers and musicans excel in each his own field...
Thats why each is called on in his own...

The best way to shape this musical ability is to hang out with musicians alot older than u.. Iam talking about 60 - 70...It doesnt matter whether its classical or blues or ragtime...
They kno the piano or guitar or whatever better than most peeps..
And they want to share there experince with someone..

U can read tons of bookd, but until u have someone show u a song he wrote note for note that took him 4years to write.. Is really the only pure way of understanding fully the creation of what u are doing..

For example If you do not understand why the song was written. U do not understand the mood..
Therefore u have less understanding of the chords going into the song..

Music isnt just knowing chords and theorys its about ever changing moods.. and how you connect those modds to those theories and chords..

Aight back to the sensi.
Peace

Question 1&2
when i said chords i ment intervals, All blues songs have the same "distance " between the chourds. which is usually 5ths.(flattened 5ths actually) If your starting at C the blues scale would look like this
C - Eb - F - Gb - G - Bb – C
Ohh yea there is no such thing as C flat man…..Are u trying to test me????

Question #3
Premunation has to deal with the 12 tone tequnique of creating music. Actually schorburg( a post modern composer) created this teqnique. (its mathamatics) This is usually taught in any introductory music appreciation class…… The 12 tone system was schorinburgs attempt to get the foundations behind western music scales……..

Question #4,
obviously yes they play solos , that’s what makes the music, but no matter how complex those solos are they still stay within the same chourd interval(5ths)

Qeustion#5
Oblsiously if they are playin the blues,in the blues interval, the chourd progession and scales they are following are blues scales. The first note of the solo would start and end with the first note of the blues progession that the solo is being played within.

Actually im not answering anymore of these I feel like your tryin to be a smart ass and test my knowledge or something……………….

U missed my entire point, I wasn’t saying blues is easy, I was saying that the structure of blues is simple. If u look at it blues is very complex because of its simplicity. It forces musicians to improvise within a very narrow chord progression, pushing their skills to the limit.

yo classic,

i respect you and would not try to dis you but you did answer the questions nicely (97%). i also enljoy your music and i have told you this in the past. i understand exactly what you are saying but you got your music knowledge from somewhere. most bedroom beatmaker/want to bees do not know this stuff. that is my point. these bedroom beatmakers need a point of reference and music theory is a good start. period. it bother me that a kid could purchase fruity loops and all of a sudden is a producer with no musical background. this is same as some one at your job gets a promotion but only has half the experence you have. that sh!t s*cks. music theory is a start when you do not have a clue about music.

the bottom line here is that like going to the super market, you tab is $5.61, you give the cashier $10.61 and they can not figure out how much changes to give back because they thought you were going to just give them a $10. individuals are depending more on technology then knowledge and i feel knowledge should come first. period. knowledge is power.

i forgot you got 97% because c flat is b from a music theory point of view. c flat is a half step down from c which is b.

mwalker wrote:
i forgot you got 97% because c flat is b from a music theory point of view. c flat is a half step down from c which is b.

LOL its all good in glad u let me know ur intentitons

Yea i know C flat is B

Thats why i said C flat dosent exist, U will never see Cflat writen in sheet music. its just theortical. There is no Cflat on the pano scale. its just a name for another note

I deserve a 100% lol

i am like your old math teacher no breaks here. one thing, it is great to discuss these issues/idea without it getting out of hand/name calling.

much respect man.

I dont know.

I mean, i reread some of this post and it started to get me thinking.

We compare hiphop to traditional music, such as soul, blues, jazz, etc. -all the genres it takes from. But are we missing the point of beatmaking and producing hiphop? In itself is its creativety and complexity.........if that makes sense. Like the point of hiphop is not that its claiming to be as technical as jazz, or to be compared to blues or even analyzed by music theory (not denying that music theory is a part of it).....but rather its an artform in itself. Its about the beats and the rhymes. Its about sampling. Its about the loop, its about simplicty or complexity-wherever you want to take it(whether its with keyboards, or live musicians, bongos, or samples) Thats what it is. for some, music theory has nothing to do with it, and for others, they use MT as part of there arsenal, it all depends on where youre comming from and where you want to take it.

Music thoery or not, hiphop is about the loop, the rhythm, the rhymes, the dj, the essence, and culture. Ya know? Its a symbol of our time, like soul was to the 70s, or alternative to the 90s, or jazz in the 60s. You cant compare apples and oranges.

yo cyrus,

i agree with some of your points but making music whether hip hop, jazz, rock, pop, or classical is something like a club where you can "only' join when you have paid your dues.

hip hop is an art form but there are too many individuals joining the hip hop club with no musical background at all and that is the problem that i am having.

i think hip hop started with the dj and there are allot of individual who are so called beatmakers that did not even start with djing but they brought programs like fruity loops (which is a great program but i do not use it) and now they are in the club.

for jazz players there is something called "cutting", that is when you have individuals battle with there instruments. when an individual gets cut he or she would go home and "shed" (which means practice, dont go out and play until you have your chops up, ie sonny rollins). jazz was the hip hop of it time and just because you own a horn did not make you a jazz player.

my final point, i am not trying to win friends here but stop the "NON COMMIT" musicians whether beatmaker, producers or instrumentalists from joining the club that i have "SHEDDED/PAID MY DUES" to join. period. if i have made a "NON COMMIT" beatmaker feel like they do not belong in the club i have done my job.

true.

yeah MWalker, I've been thinking about how simple current hip hop is, and it's not even good, even when it is good, it's pretty weak, however, sampling is not just a crutch, there are people out there who really break new ground woth samples, like Public enemy did, making something like the bomb squad is not easy, even with fruity loops, logic, whatever, they really hit hard.

Its kinda like how Miles used Modal styles (break new ground), and how I use them (cuz it's easier than keeping the groove than with key changes and chord progressions, which I don't usually like the sound of too much, I think too many people put in hord and key changes just to do it by the book, even if it sounds really weak).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You guys have some good points
but i think yall are confusing music theory with musical talent....
they are not the same thing.

Some of the best musicans and composers in the world(modern and classical),jazz,blues) did not know music theory(or had a very basic understanding)

thats what i mean when i say, that music theory dosent really help somebody become a better musican(if the talent isent in them)

U can Study the constructs of music for 1000 years, but it will not show u how to create it. That creativity is natural and god givin......

Yes i know music theory pretty well, but when im creating music I never use it. I just trust my ear.

ALsoi was creating meldodies/compositions etc... long before i was proficient in theory. The creativiy aspect was always within me, theory or no theory..................

Music theory just descirboes what most talented/creative indiviudals do naturally..

My 2 cents

class.....

class said:

"Music theory just descirboes what most talented/creative indiviudals do naturally.. "

this is very true and could not have said it better but if the talent/creative is lacking, theory is a good place to start. my point is, if you are not the most talented person or do not have the greatness ear in the world thru theory/knowledge of music you can become talented and creative. theory can help you get your ideas together but i guess this is what you are saying class/elmac if there is no talent there is no ideas, which is very true.

i hate to admit class/elmac but talent is needed at some level.

some of the biggest influences of contemporary music couldn't read it. the beatles, for one, man.

i compare music theory to grammer and sentance structure.

i am a writer. i get a salary as a journalist. i have been published in many magazines and in one book.
i can't tell you what a "clause" is. i have no idea what a participle is.

i took classic latin for 5 years, and they apply many of the same words dealing with english grammer to that of latin (perfect passive participle, etc). one does not need to know what it means/how it works to be able to talk. for some, it may help. but honestly, i learned how to write by reading. i now have an ear for grammer. i know what's right and what's wrong based on the hundreds of thousands of pages which i have read.

the same can be applied/said for music and musicians. granted, i plan to learn theory and i'm taking keyboarding classes next semester. but nevertheless - it's icing on the cake. if you know it, cool. it's another weapon in your arsenal, another line to write on your resume.

i agree with most of your comments. however, also realize the severe limitation that a conventional training can impose.

as for hip hop being the simplest of musics, i disagree wholeheartedly. yes, it can be. any song of any genre can be made to be a simple song. hip hop began at simplicity for technological reasons. there are compositions today which are more complex and HUNDREDS of times less repetitive than 99% of popular rock songs.

particularly with new wave and progressive hip hop. the drum programming involved is so much more in depth than that of a rock drummer. not saying that rock is simpler than hip hop - i think you can only compare this kind of thing on a song by song basis.

anyway, just my piece. i had to say something cuz i've been watching this post since its infancy.

some of the biggest influences of contemporary music couldn't read it. the beatles, for one, man.

Very true, and they were like 16/17 & writing real deep songs like Norwegian Wood & In My Life from Rubber Soul... They learned & wrote everything by ear, sure they each developed into accomplished musicians but they didnt learn no music theory... I believe they ended up selling quite a few records too

Music theory is a theory, not something that is actually proven to be true. Even the overtone series, from which all of our scales eminate, has never been proven. These are simply accepted models which for some reason have been passed down over and over again. There are different music theories in the East, west, south whatever. Even our tempered tunnings are merely approximations. Learning classic music theories like counterpoint, cycles of fifths and such may help you, but it may also be leading you astray. My humble advice to any reading is this:

Question every single bit of information you read or is taught to you about music theory. Find out how these models came to accepted, and how they were originated.

If it seems we are repeating ourselves as musicians, it is because our current theory is no longer relevant. Instead we have focused on new quirks in sound quality, rehashing forgotten genres and making personal introverted music. Do the math, trust your ear, and lets stop repeating ourselves.

peace

BTW, Arnold Schoenberg devised the twelve tone method, not Shoringburd or something.

damn,

yes there are allot of self train musicians and for every "great" self train musician i will list 20 "great" trained musicians. i am musician by trade and when i started playing i played by ear but i was just a funk drummer. when i started study music it open musical doors that i never knew existed. yes, i was playing 5, 7 , 9, 11 stroke rolls and did not know that i was playing them. but after studying different techniques "my" playing level increased 100 fold.

now when i attended berklee you had to learn the keyboard. yes again, i could play a couple of chord on the piano but after learning about leading tones, different modes, etc. my keyboard playing increased 100 fold.

to put all together, i never took a guitar lesson but that same theory i learn at berklee i can apply to the guitar also. so, when i compose i play my own guitar track (i am no allan holdsworth (self trained great guitarist) but i get the job done).

now i have a question:

when you play by ear is a lot of your work trail and error? when you have your chord progression do you know exactly what scale(s) can be used or you need time for trail and error? with theory there is no trail and error to find the right scale(s). i am at the point where if i can hum it i can play it. all thru theory.

yes, there are 100s of self trained musician who knows what scale(s) to play over a chord progression but in my opinion these self trained musician are "GIFTED". NOT EVERYONE IS "GIFTED". PERIOD. if at individual is that "GIFTED" they/you would have been discovered by someone at a local, city, state, country or world level. the best drummer i ever saw was dennis chamber (self trained) and when he was 17 years he played of parliment(someone noticed him because? he is "GIFTED").

i am not saying if you are or are not "GIFTED" but not all of you guys/girls are "GIFTED". if all of you were "GIFTED" being "GIFTED" would not carry any weight. being "GIFTED" happens at birth not when you 14, 15, 16, 21, 25 or 30. therefore if you are "GIFTED" someone would have notice.

inclusion, i won a scholarship to berklee and i thought i was the best drummer in the world when i got there but when i got there i was almost average. i realized quickly that there are some "GIFTED" musician out there (natural talent) and i better study hard to keep up. if you feel that you are "GIFTED" but no one has recognize you as "GIFTED" you are not. period. being "GIFTED" is a badge that someone else gives you and not self appointed. what i am saying is not the gospel but music theory has been time tested and it does work. the bottom line is that you have to do what works for you. i rather understand what i am trying to do musically rather than allot of guess work.

i guess different stroke to different folks.

p.s. my post here are gear towards the younger beat makers because the older ones are pretty much stuck in their ways (and there is nothing wrong with that). not everyone is "GIFTED" and if you want to excel in the music making business, learn as much as possible about music. whether theory, piano lessons, drums or whatever. leave no stones unturned and always remember "for every grain of sand you put in you will receive tons in returns".

peace to all. great discussion.