Pete Rock a 16-bit sell out.....

This is just the same....

If James Brown were to cut his first record today, right now, he would record it to Protools. "Live to Mono Full-Track" was THE "state of art technology" when he made his ground breaking music.

Nostalga is a disease.

T

Man.. Thier is a ton of ignorance being tossed out in this thread. Let me demystify some things:

I'm going to start by touching on the Pete Rock comment posted by Drumat!c.

First, I will start this reply by saying, Drumat!c makes better beats then all of ya'll on this forum. Hip-Hop ain't about sucking each other off and being a non-hater. It's about bragging, and who has the best product. If anyone thinks they can fade my man on the beats, let us know a time and place online or off, and we'll make it happen. If you wanna do this in person, we can bring the cameras. The results will be displayed on my companys website.

With that said, Pete Rock is indeed a sell out. You cats obviously don't know one when you see one. Dude rocked the SP-1200 for over 20yrs. Then he appears in an ad rocking a machine he picked up in 2004, and represents it as if this was the machine that started it all. The ad is implying, this machine gives Pete Rock the sound and vibe. Now let me back pettle for a second. Can any of you cats HONESTLY say that Pete Rock has made a beat in the last 4 years that blows away anything he did pre-98? If you can, your lying. Cause' it ain't happen. I'm not sure if any of you heard the HORRIBLE jiggy 12" him and CL did a few years ago, or that terrible Incredible Bongo Band remix he did for One Be Lo. But, that to me is the sign of straight laziness. Now just because I, Drum, or anyone else has a distaste for his current musical affairs, that doesn't mean we don't respect the catalog. No one is questioning his legendary status. But he went pop..I mean yo, his shirt in that ad looks like he works at Hot Dog on A Stick, and it looks like he coped his pance from TJ Maxx clearance rack. I'm not the fashion police, but I've never seen him dressed like that in any ad appearance prior to the one in question. Thats called; PLAYING YOURSELF. Incase you mother fuc*kas ain't notice, hip-hop went POP like 7 or 8 years go. To quote my man L, "Some rappers use to sport chains, and know they rock beads, I don't understand it.". That was the selling out going on back then, now we're in a new era of sell outs, and they are worst then ever. Don't even get me started on the geopolitical side of this shit because it's all about enslaving the youths minds, and keepin one foot on the back of an artist neck.

With all that said, Pete rock lost some respect from me, and a grip of other cats I know. And some of these cats I know are not straight Underground Hip-Hopers. They like Scarface, and some Puff, and all that shit. And they still were pissed at SS2. I think that speaks volumes.

Moving on...

In reference to some cat who said, "You act as if the gear ruined them". THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS. Let me tell you cats something.. I've been selling equipment for 5 years. Over a 1,000 transactions since 2001. I've handled just about every sampler you can think of, from Studio 440's, to SP-1200's, to 2000's (Which I currently have sitting here FOR SALE). Anyhow, the point is that, the equipment you use totally dictates your work ethic. Anyone who has used more then one sampler would know that. Ask someone like DJAndreas. Ask him how his work flow changes from the 60, to a 12-T. It's totally different. You approach samples, drum loops, everything, in a different way. If I make a beat on the MPC, it's gonna be more smoothed out, less rough edges. If I make a beat on the SP, it's gonna be real straight foward style, coming at you type sh*t. More loose feeling. The same thing applies with RECORDING equipment. What you record with, and mix with, is going to dictate your sound. Most of you n*ggas have probably never sat behind anything bigger then a Mackie 32:8 bus. So you can't even comprehend what i'm saying.. but hear me out. If you were to take your same sterile MPC 2000XL sampler, and run it through a Neve to 2" tape, the sound coming from the outputs would be colored and dramatically changed. Much darker, and fuller. This doesn't mean "Grimer". It just means a more true sound, more massive, and ultimately thicker. I say truer because a quality analog console can bring ranges out in a sample or live instrument that low budget mixers and digital solutions can't. This includes PT HD3, top of the line HDR's, etc. Thier is a reason music in the mid 90's had so much FEELING. It was partly the records, partly the samplers, and a lot about the recording medium. Nowadays for instance.. An MC comes to my studio right? Dude is thinking he is King Chile. He's got the 12" penis and the best rhymes. So he's smoking his blunt, drinking a Heini' etc. He gets on the mic, I cue up the track, record light turns on and he starts rapping. Dude only makes it 3 1/2 bars before he **** up. Then he's going, "Stop the beat, hold up, hold up, hold up.. Let me hit this again homie.. This time, im'a get it." So repeat process, 3 1/2 bars later, here we are again with him going, "Hold up, hold up, hold up.". Now I record on analog tape only. So it's costing me time, money, splicing tape for overdubs, and punches, etc. This is like a 15 minute process everytime he **** up. Because this cat is use to recording at digital studios, he thinks he can f*uck up a hundred times and it's cool. The reality is, he is a whack MC, and shouldn't be recording material in the first place. He shoulda honed his craft more, or, stayed a fan. And thats my point, digital recording has changed the way people work because it's undesctructive and everyone knows they can just cut, copy, and paste away to fix the problem. What this translates to is, less skilled musicians and beat makers, and producers who are hardly good. Back in the day, tape was the most widely used professional medium. Because of that, and because recording equpiment was so expensive, the only people getting heard by major labels were the cream of the crop MC's, musicans, and beat makers, (and a small few who were someones cousin at the label). That is why we call the mid 90's golden era Hip-Hop. Because it was the cream of the crop era. Everyone was at thier peak. To those who say equipment doesn't influence your sound, you need to re-evaluate your perspective on that.

What alllllllllll this bullsh*t I kicked above boils down to is, you cats justify your comments by saying people like me and Drumz are stuck in the past, and that people like ya'll are keeping with the times by advancing into the future with Hip-Hop. I read between the lines, and what I take from what has been said by some of you is, we've all agree'd to except mediocracy. Sometime after 99 it seems, everyone got on this don't be hater routine. F*uck that! If something is whack, call it by what it is. Don't powder coat your comments and sh*t. Hip-hop was never about likeing everyones material, giving everyone props, and not hating because he's getting paid. It was always about competition from jump. You get props if your dope, and if someone thinks your whack, you battle for those props. Someone is gonna keep they're props, or "get they shine stolen"-Meth.

I'm going to end it like this, Hip-Hop is pop now. From the top to the Underground. Thier is only a handful of cats still creating that "Real Hip-Hop". When Hip-Hop reached the masses, one major thing changed, the focus on beats instead of the lyrics. No one is saying sh*t anymore. And that includes 95% of the Underground heads too.

FYI. Salam Remi used an SP-1200 on the new Nas LP. And that album was fu*king attortious. Just because someone uses what we consider to be "The dope samplers", dosen't mean we automatically support it. I know tons of kids who shame the MPC 60 and SP.

Fin-

Golden-

Willie Mitchell still cuts Al green on a 24-trk 2" MCI machine, with a 32 ch. MCI JH636 console and records him with an OG 1960's RCA DX-77 ribbon mic. Get off that Nostalgia is a disease. Thiers tons of cats from Eric Clapton on down who refuse to use digital. Lenny Kravitz is so into analog he purchased the original Beatles Red3 console. One of two remaining in the world. He does use Pro Tools now in conjunction with it.. But, his latest LP compared to his first offering says it all.

Again Golden-

I know you love the "man behind the machine' theory, but the reality is, the better gear you have, the better chance you'll have executing your master plan. And lets face it, Pete's switch to the 2000XL hasn't been to graceful. Although a "better machine" is a subjective phrase, in this case, the SP-1200 would be Pete's better machine. Not to mention the ole' approach theory I talked about above.

Heres an oldie but a goodie, and it fits this thread perfectly. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

I've got a question for you tech guru's. I'm going out on a limb here but, I would guess that the internal componetry between an MPC 60 vs. a 2000XL etc. Is probably of a much higher grade? The chip sets, IC's, etc?

Lo Pass Filter wrote:Golden-

Your a dickhead my brother. Willie Mitchell still cuts Al green on a 24-trk 2" MCI machine, with a 32 ch. MCI JH36 console and records him with an OG 1960's RCA DX-77 ribbon mic. Get off that Nostalgia is a disease. Thiers tons of cats from Eric Clapton on down who refuse to use digital. Lenny Kravitz is so into analog he purchased the original Beatles Red3 console. One of two remaining in the world. He does use Pro Tools now in conjunction with it.. But, his latest LP compared to his first offering says it all.

I'm not a dickhead for having my own opinion just like anybody else posting to this thread...
I never called any names, just contributing to a COMPLETELY AESTHETICAL debate/ conversation.

Sure some folks still use tape, but most do not. Some folks still use a 60, most use an XL. Good music made on both sides. When it's about vibe, go with what PLEASES you... when you start thinking that your music (or anybody's music) is lame because of the tools used you need to re-evaluate.
Nothing can stop a good idea. The 60 is a cool box, some people have started the next thing to a revolution with it...
But I think those people would have started a revolution with whatever they were using.

I was just enjoying this thread, put my ideas out as much taking any in... and you all had to go calling names.

T

^revised my dick head comment. It was unessaccary, but I couldn't help myself.

I agree it's about Vibes, but it's always bout the gear too. No matter how you want to cut it. People talk about Hendrix's guitar being restringed upside down or left handed, or whatever, but he was still making music during a period of time that is considerd by guitar enthusiast to be the golden era of guitar manufacturing. Not to mention, both his live material, and studio recorded material, were done on some of the most highly respected microphones and preamps ever made. It all started with the man and his skill, but it was the top notch equipment that reorded him and brought him to you, that give him a classic sound.

Whoa!! This is gettin good!!

Ok Golden Echo's, I was still being playful with the envy steez, and I was more playin with binger on that, but props for coming out on a big hip hop board, I ain't phobic, and I hope the comments didn't offend or anything. I respect that.

Yo Drum, I think you might be taking this a bit far. pete Rock has been using a 2000 for a long while, I think SS1 had a bunch of 2000 on it, Still not as good as his earlier stuff, only partly to do with the gear, but the point is now he's doing ads cuz homie likes the gear, and he needs to get paid. I mena, when pete rock can't get a record deal with anyone but BBE, and then they screw him over, well shyt, a brother's gotta eat. But I agree, I think if he stuck with the SP he would put out better music because it has pulled better stuff out of him.

Yes the gear does make a difference, if it wasn't for Roger linn these things wouldn't exist, the SP-12 was a rip off of the Linn 9000 made cheaper. if it wasnt for the 60 akai wouldn't be able to rip off the design and make the 2000 and the rest of them. On the new models they so obviously went back to look at the 60 and 3000 for their design, even they had to recognise. I'm not saying the XL is shyt or anything, but it is a different machine. There is no "someone would have come up with it eventually" BS. progress is only linear when you look back at it. Its like saying poor black kids would have invented hip hop anyway if it wasn't for Kool Herc and Bambaataa, bullshyt again, these guys were innovators, they brought it, they invented things, if they died young we would probably not have this in any form. No one says someone would have invented the lightbulb if edison didn't do it, or the telephone if Bell didn't do it, but they'll say it about the brown.

Also, to speak on Lo Pass's point, the way they made gear back in the days was much different. The most prized mics, te Neumanns, were made in a time when cost was not an issue, they built them like nasa builds rockets, no regard for profit, just make them the best you can with what we have, cost is no object. Quality went in everywhere, no one thought of ways to save money because they were too busy thinking of how to make it better instead of cheaper. Over the years this has gone down to almost non existance, and peoplethink of an idea and how to save money on it, immediately. If it doesn't have huge profits, it won' get made, even if it's good. Things were not always like this people. By the time the 60 rolled around these attitudes were already creepin in, taking the filters out of the 900 they used for the model, cutting back the features because akai wanted to sell their 950's too, then the Mk II was the first to have the plastic case to cut costs idea, because the Mk I case cost a lot of money, because it was designed to sit next to neve's and studers in pro studios, once they bought them up, then they lower the price by cutting back a little on the case and open their market a bit more. But the quality stamp was still higher than when they went bezerk cutting costs on the 2000.

Still doesn't make it a bad machine, but what went into it was a very different design philosophy, they thought they could do it without roger linn and they did, but no where near as well as if they had him onboard. Just imagine...

Anyhow, Madlib isn't a sell out, he's got his SP-1200 sittin on an S1000 right at the edge of the table, the 4000 is back against the wall with a recorder in front of it, not a very usable position. He uses a bunch of other gear too, but he's sick with it, and I bet boss throws him free gear cuz he uses it high profile. Pete Rock gotta do what he does, I mean, his quote is what "all producers I know have at least 1 MPC" and he holds the one he has, ain't nothing wrong with that, shyt it's pretty much true.

The bit wars stuff was a joke, yes I love 12 bit, yes my 16 bit sampler will probably get sold for something else, probably something else 16 bit that I won't use as much as my Emu and 60, but whatever.

Lo pass got a point about all this "no hating" Bullshyt in hip hop too. The thing is Binger is probably a lot like Drumatic and Lo Pass, his head is right and I think he just got on the other side for the joke aspect, and then other cats took it serious.

SO lets share a blunt and chill it out a bit, and discuss what there is to discuss.

Elma-

You hit the nail on the head with the Neumann break down. Thats basically summing up what I was getting at. The era we live in is all about cutting cost to maximize profits. And in the end, we as consumers suffer. Music is a prime example of consumers getting shafted today. From the quality of the music presented, to how it's made and what it's made on.

I can respect the, "Pete Rock has to eat" comment. I use to straight hate on any form of selling out. Reality is, I've got 2 children, and when the bills are stacking up, and money isn't coming fast enough, posing in an ad, or whatever, doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

I still doesn't make you NOT a SELL OUT. But I understand the reasoning behind that desicion making process. If you notice, I purposely never said, "What was he thinking?". Because I know the answer to that.

I suppose the consumers + industry at preset are just as much to blame for Petes sell out moves as himself. They aren't leaving him a whole of options. It's a damn shame.

petes beats just aint the same these days, i dont care what he uses

yeah, I don't think he's a sell out, but I think a lot of the bandwagoneers that leave a machine because people say oh there's something better when that machine helped make your careeer is just losing yourself. There si so much more to be explored on these machines, and people act like they did all they can do on them.

There was a guy in Tape Op talking about mics and how they used to buld them, getting transformers custom wound, experimenting with expensive stuff before they decided what was right. I mena, that's how I make my music, and if you use a bunch of gear, you can tell how much the company listened to musicians and electronics engineers, and instrument makers, and how much they listened to accountants.

I love these debates. Anybody try the bit reducer on Battery 2 yet? The manual says it will emulate the grimey sound of 12 and 13 bit samplers! haha I ain't gettin rid of my S950 anytime soon but hey at least the software world is trying.

What is interesting to me is, why are they trying? I think machines have a sound, and Computers have a sound as well, but it is not a sound that people recognise too well yet. When these drum machines first came out they were not considered lo fi because they were the best available, the linn Drum was real samples, people loved that, analog drums were then considered passe, retro, perhaps lo fi because they didn't sound like real drums. But on fidelity, analog drums have more fdelity than a 32 bit 698KHz sampler, smooth waves.

It was only when higher rates came out that these became lo fi, progress marching on, but why then do these sounds continue to be popular, why these machines? it is not just nostalgia, cuz many machines are left in the dust. Some have a sound, some have an interface, some have a feel, and these new and improved products dont. They don;t have a sound, they don't have a feel, so they give you a menu of feels, and of sounds, trying to be all things to all people. That's why they never last, why they will constantly upgrade, like the nord series or virus series, they come out with the same keyboard 4 different times and just make improvements, they never make a complete perfect product, because they want it to have it all, and it just isn't practical.

Computers do have a sound, but people can't hear it because it is cutting edge right now. 16 bit samplers have different sounds, just like 12 bit ones do, but they vary less in character because to our ears the fidelity is high, so the different character makes less difference between them. But put it beside an 808, or a Linn Drum, or an SP-1200, and you'll see, it's not a different character, but less character.

I think the software companies are trying to come up with a substitute for hardware which is why you will see references to hardware in their manual. Take hardware samplers for instance. The leading software samplers can do everything hardware samplers can do and more. The problem is the DACs and A/Ds on our soundcards may not have the same specs or character the hardware samplers have. Anyway the trend is towards the software substitute anyway. The bottom line rules and eventually MPCs, Emus, ASR-10s etc will break and we will be stuck with no spare parts. I see companies like Emu/Creative and I wonder how long it will be until we do not see another MPC model or hardware sampler being released.