808 and a bass line

gotta problem!! i listen to songs by folks like lil jon and young jeezy and i notice they use the 808 and still have a super low bassline going onwhen i try to put a bassline behind my 808's, the beat sounds distorted. do they fix this in the mix or somthing? thanks yall!!

prolly, u need to get em playin on dif frequencies so they dont muck each other up

As an experiment, try being massively aggressive with your EQ cutting.. Get your 808 kick and set your high shelf gain to the maximum reduction value.. Now, sweep the frequency down until you hear the kick sound starting to have the high frequencies removed.

Now, do the opposite with your bassline.. Set your low shelf gain to the maximum reduction value and sweep the frequency up until you hear the low end in your bassline being cut..

You now know the ranges of the two. Hopefully they will not overlap but if they do you will need to be more aggressive with your cutting.. Take more high end off the kick until you start to lose the fundamental part of its character.. Take more low end off your bassline until you start to effect its character..

Too many times in this forum I read 'EQ!! Boost everything' in answer to peoples 'I need more bass' questions. Applying EQ boost is one easy way to reduce the perceived low end your tracks.. The number one rule for EQ especially for us non-experts is 'never boost, always cut'.. Okay, perhaps very rarely boost

Let us know how you get on..

oo many times in this forum I read 'EQ!! Boost everything' in answer to peoples 'I need more bass' questions. Applying EQ boost is one easy way to reduce the perceived low end your tracks.. The number one rule for EQ especially for us non-experts is 'never boost, always cut'.. Okay, perhaps very rarely boost Smile
>>>>>>>

yar, its something you learn- filtering is key- a guy i know has awesomely mixed ambient tracks which rarely uses eq for- he uses the filters on his s5000 to take away any freqs not needed in the sound...means after all thats done they all slot together quite nice

greg

also u can try rollin off tha extremely low frequencies that just cause rumble like say 33hz nd below this will allow u to hear everything above that frequency a bit better. or u cant try to fade out jus a bit of tha 808 'boom' so it doesnt leak as much into tha bassline.

"also u can try rollin off tha extremely low frequencies that just cause rumble like say 33hz nd below this will allow u to hear everything above that frequency a bit better. or u cant try to fade out jus a bit of tha 808 'boom' so it doesnt leak as much into tha bassline."

You probably need to be more aggressive than this.. Most adults can only hear from say, 40-50hz (this is a guess btw) and besides, most studio monitors only have a range of from 50-60hz, domestic speakers might be as high as 80-10hz. So unless you have a sub and very good hearing, cut below 50 or even higher!

damn yall, thanks for all the advice! i will def try all of this when i get off work. good lookin!!

punkdISCO wrote: Most adults can only hear from say, 40-50hz (this is a guess btw) and besides, most studio monitors only have a range of from 50-60hz, domestic speakers might be as high as 80-10hz. So unless you have a sub and very good hearing, cut below 50 or even higher!

not necessarily a good idea to cut all that out....especially for rap

when you get below 63Hz or so you are dealing with both audible sound and tactile response (feeling the bass)

also if you start killing every thing below 63 you will also kill second and thrid harmonics of 63 (126 and 252)

the noteworthy freq is 250....when you hear them cars rumbling by its usually 250 thats causing that resonance

ducking out too early even as low as 63 will sacrifice the aforementioned rumble...

that being said, dont go boosting @ 250 like crazy cause then thats all you'll hear...

(why am i being so nice lately)

oh and fuk you very much (remeber what you said el!!!!!!!)

Hi

"when you get below 63Hz or so you are dealing with both audible sound and tactile response (feeling the bass)"

For sure dude but only if your speakers can play that low. On a decent club system you will get this but on standard studio speakers without a sub you will not feel the bass as your speaker are not capable of playing the bass.. I think we need to know what 'skmagnum' has in his studio and also, where he intends to play this track. Its very normal for people to do a few mixes with a club mix having more low end left in place..

"also if you start killing every thing below 63 you will also kill second and thrid harmonics of 63 (126 and 252)"

Errrm, no. If your source signal has a fundamental of 63hz and harmonics of 126 and 252hz as it hits your EQ, cutting below 63 will do just that - cut below 63.. The harmonics are already in the signal chain and are not going to be effected by the lower cutting.. For example, if harmonics disappeared whenever you removed the fundamental using EQ then EQ would be useless as you have a sound that covers a wide frequency range (like most sounds do) and you are turning your EQ frequency knob until you hit the fundamental and BANG, the sound disappears.. Clearly this would not be very desirable and indeed breaks quite a few laws of physics..

Off home. Weekend = music time!!

This is a very tricky part of mixing hip hop which i must say that i have mastered.

1st you must choose a good 808 patch and choose the right bass patch to compliment the 808.
choosing the right sounds is half the battle.

if u have to boost a bass or 808 patch in any frequency then u need to find new sounds.

i personally never boost any kick, bass, or 808 kick.

now once u have good sounds then the first task is the compression.
many people don't know how to compress and the key to hip hop and dance music is compression.
after u have compressed first the 808 with a good compressor such as the ua 1176ln then compress the bass until u get into the ballpark of how u want ish to sound.

next the 808 is the one that u want really handling the bass duties for the track. so cut at 60hz using a pultec until it is controlled but thumping.
now using a pultec cut the bass at 60 hz even more that u did with the 808 until the bass starts to come out. u probably want to be pretty aggressive with the cut since the 808 is what is really taking up the bass frequencies. this will also depend of the role of the bass and differs from track to track.

the best tip i can give u for hip hop is to learn compression very well.

unfortunately....most of us have to replace that Urei with a DBX, Joe Meek or some other comp and then the Pultec is replaced by the filter on the S950, W-30 or an Electrix Filter Factory.....


even though I wish I did have the gear you recommend.

punkdISCO wrote:"also if you start killing every thing below 63 you will also kill second and thrid harmonics of 63 (126 and 252)"

Errrm, no.

what you think cutting a fundamental has no effect on the upper harmonics....

ever mix stage monitors?????? apparently not...

maybe i used the wrong choice of words.....

it wont kill upper freqs completely, but it WILL have an effect on them...

use a 1/3rd to kill mic feedback in a live situation and you'll see EXACTLY what i mean

Good points Beat God

"1st you must choose a good 808 patch and choose the right bass patch to compliment the 808. choosing the right sounds is half the battle."

Just to add a little.. You need to be careful about compressing synth patches off romplers, sound libraries, or 'original' samples off record as these will already be compressed. You can literally sample a 808 kick off a record that might have been sampled and compressed a dozen times since leaving an original 808.. Compression should be used when required not by default..

Anyway, dude has a 808 so yep, he had better get his compressors out!

i use compression by default for me it is always required. i am from nyc and grew up in ny studios so i subscribe to the nyc school of thought on compression, which is too much is never enough. hip hop started in nyc as we all know so those hard hitting drums hip hop is known for comes from over-compression. as u can tell i love my compressor.

to be fair someone send me a file of a drum beat that u think is done being mixed, with each one shot on its own track and i will post the original and then post my mix, and y'all will get a better understanding of what i am saying

Hi again - I have mixed up your reply as it covers two areas.

"what you think cutting a fundamental has no effect on the upper harmonics.... it wont kill upper freqs completely, but it WILL have an effect on them... "

It can not have an effect - this is impossible. The purpose of our HPF on the 808 kick is to allow all frequencies above its cutoff point to pass through from filter input to filter output without attenuation, whereas frequencies below the cutoff are attenuated (cut). It simply doesn't matter if a single harmonic is part of a signal or just a distinctive signal on it's own in a mix. It still is a melange.

Example 1: two very narrow sound source sin waves, one at 63hz and one at 252, produced by synth1 and synth2 but mixed together and passing through our HPF as a single signal. Clearly cutting below 70hz will attenuate synth1 but have not effect on synth2

Example 2: [our example] An 808 kick that has a fundamental at 63hz and a harmonic at 252, passing through our HPF as a single signal. Cutting below say, 70hz will attenuate the signal below this frequency but will have NO effect on the frequencies above (our 252hz harmonic). It absolutely can not have an effect on it. If we want to be anal about it then it 'could' actually make the listener believe that the 252hz has increased in volume as we have removed low-end and probably increased some headroom allowing us to push the fader up a little without distortion if required - this is one of the main advantages of EQ. Earlier you suggested that the 252Hz frequency might be important to the 808 kick's sound and character. Presuming this is the case (quite likely) then this gives us even more reason to want to cut below 60-70hz if our intended system can not play these frequencies anyway; it will allow us to push the harmonic frequencies higher in the mix and make them more present.

The point is that our HPF can not distinguish between example 1 and example 2 - it is processing a single signal irrespective of whether the signal was made by two synths or a single 808 kick with harmonics..

"ever mix stage monitors??? apparently not... use a 1/3rd to kill mic feedback in a live situation and you'll see EXACTLY what i mean"

No I have not and I think this is where you are getting confused. This example is not related to our discussion. You are describing the effects of open acoustic environments, reflections, etc. We are discussing a 808 kick going through a HPF and what frequencies are then attenuated by the HPF (clue: the frequencies below the cuttoff frequency and not the ones above it)

Anyway, interesting thread..

Paul