SYNC: BeatClock vs. MTC vs. SMPTE

Triple_A wrote:He's using a Mac dude. There is no CTL-ALT-DLT!!

Thanks for the correction...The same advice applies though. Make sure as few backgroung apps are running as possible.

SMPTE is never the answer, too many variables involved from one piece of gear to the next.
The specs for SMPTE are good, but the individual implementation from vendor to vendor varies.

Your problem
1) a slow G4 400 (it's working a lot harder than you may think)
2) Digi001 has some inherent flaws in it's MIDI hardware that can give it hic ups under load
3) LE only does MIDI beat clock out so MTC out isn't an option
4) the smallest buffer the 001 supports is 256 (128 is better 64 is best but the 001 can't go that low)
5) when using the 001 anything else that's using the PCI bus can affect it's ability to move the data chunks quickly.

Been a minute since I was forced to use a Digi001 but I do remember that a G4 400 AGP isn't the best man for the job (G4 400 PCI is even worse).

You can use a better MIDI interface but since you are on O.S. 9 and 5.1 it may not be supported.
You could use MTC from the MPC to trigger PT but that's gonna be affected by the same factors you are dealing with now.

Since you say it's inconsistent that makes it look like your system resources are bogging down and loading up.

My suggestions;
1) get a faster Mac (even if it means getting a used G4, iBook, eMac, iMac etc)
2)
-If the faster computer has PCI slots then upgrade to running OSX and PT 6.4 on the 001
-If the faster computer doesn't have PCI slots upgrade to the 002r or go with m-Powered and use a m Audio interface.
-Switch to a different DAW.
-Switch to a AMD based ,machine for the cheap price and horsepower.

Triple_A wrote:He's using a Mac dude. There is no CTL-ALT-DLT!!

Actually there is....Control and Alt (option) are right next to each other and Delete is up where delete always is....doesn't mean they do the same as windows though!!!!

[quote="ntalec"]SMPTE is never the answer, too many variables involved from one piece of gear to the next.
The specs for SMPTE are good, but the individual implementation from vendor to vendor varies.

Actually SMPTE is the most commonly used sync in pro studios as it was set up to be the "standard" for sync by the Society of Motion Picture & Television Engineers. True, there are a number of variables but they were implemented to allow SMPTE to work with many different formats including NTSC and PAL video. Typically, pro audio setups use SMPTE 30 FPS for audio. ALL devices that use SMPTE do so in the exact same way. It is substantially more reliable than both MTC and beat clock as it is a dedicated sync tool. As long as both devices are using the same frame rate you will have no problems. Before MTC it was also the only game in town...

Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions, everybody.

ntalec, your assessment makes the most sense to me (going with my instincts.)

Yeah, I know, I need a new computer, bad. Back when I got this G4 maybe 6 years ago, it was 'the shtt.'

It's funny how when the DIGI001 came out, they were pimping it with an old blue G3!

I guess my problem is strictly financial then.....until I can afford a newer G4 or G5, and DIGI002. (Save the PT hate, I'm used to it, so I'll probably stick with it.)

fader-pro wrote:

ntalec wrote:SMPTE is never the answer, too many variables involved from one piece of gear to the next.
The specs for SMPTE are good, but the individual implementation from vendor to vendor varies.

Actually SMPTE is the most commonly used sync in pro studios as it was set up to be the "standard" for sync by the Society of Motion Picture & Television Engineers. True, there are a number of variables but they were implemented to allow SMPTE to work with many different formats including NTSC and PAL video. Typically, pro audio setups use SMPTE 30 FPS for audio. ALL devices that use SMPTE do so in the exact same way. It is substantially more reliable than both MTC and beat clock as it is a dedicated sync tool. As long as both devices are using the same frame rate you will have no problems. Before MTC it was also the only game in town...

You're off the mark on that.
The problem with SMPTE is unfortunately various pieces don't support all the rates and as I said prior the implementation is far from being as standard in a piece of gear as people think.
So SMPTE is basically 24/25/30/30df, ok you have something that was done at 30 but the device you need to use it on only will support 29.97 and the headaches begin.
What mask this is that people are generally working with in similar scenarios when passing work around or in many cases running similar setups.
The more other things improved the more the flaws in SMPTE became more visable.
With the need for sample accurate sync that DAWs caused more problems with lock manifest themselves.
The saving grace for a long time turned out to be the DTP since that allowed you to sync the necessary elements of sample accurate transfer and distribute it to multiple formats.
Yes SMPTE was used for quite some time as a STANDARD and is more stable in theory than MTC and MIDI clock, but digital, even as early as the MDM's showed the true weakness of using SMPTE.
Want to see the beauty of SMPTE take a DA-88 with the SY card and also strip a track on one of the channels, then lock it up to a DAW using SMPTE and record a track.
Once with the SY doing the SMPTE and then again with the SMPTE coming from a track on the tape.
Then compare the two and notice how out of time each is.
Now add that to a computer running with a big buffer and a little stress and you are just all out of sync.

Well anyway none of this really pertains to itchy's problem anyway so ........................................

All that being said - all the big houses here in Atlanta and the few I've worked in in LA sync with SMPTE. I will admit that I am involved with alot of projects that require gen-lock with video so that may be the reason as blackburst is simply vertical SMPTE laid between video frames...I suppose the end result is all that matters - if your shlt syncs up you're cool...When the end comes though, the countdown will be on a SMPTE generator - just like all the old "B" movies

fader-pro wrote:All that being said - all the big houses here in Atlanta and the few I've worked in in LA sync with SMPTE. I will admit that I am involved with alot of projects that require gen-lock with video so that may be the reason as blackburst is simply vertical SMPTE laid between video frames...I suppose the end result is all that matters - if your shlt syncs up you're cool...When the end comes though, the countdown will be on a SMPTE generator - just like all the old "B" movies

Hey fader that's pretty much it, the video lock.
SMPTE was created with video in mind and the aspects of video have evolved around that.
Since audio and vid are just so integrated these days lots of facilities do both and work from what works for them.
When MOTU discontinued the DTP it forced a lot of us to change how we lock things since it didn't support higher rates.
You are pretty fortunate since it would appear that you only have to deal with better quality devices for Time Code, all it takes is one device to be suspect to cause you problems.

Itchy, the only thing that's a real problem in your situation is the variance, lag wouldn't be a problem is it was consistent.

What are your hardware settings?

Maybe by trying 44k, 512 samples, 85% and try setting your DAE Playback Buffer to 4, you can tweak a little bit more stability out of your system.

ntalec wrote:
Maybe by trying 44k, 512 samples, 85% and try setting your DAE Playback Buffer to 4, you can tweak a little bit more stability out of your system.

All my settings were already at what you said, except DAE buff was at 2. I changed it to 4. We'll see if that helps.
Thanks.

I still think adding more RAM and making sure your computers resources are dedicated to the task at hand may help....and then there is my standard solution which is to drop kick the danm thing and hire some real players...

fader-pro wrote:I still think adding more RAM and making sure your computers resources are dedicated to the task at hand may help....and then there is my standard solution which is to drop kick the danm thing and hire some real players...

I have 640 MB right now.
I would think that would be enough for what I'm doing.
This problem is happening with only like three audio tracks running and no plug-ins.
I guess you can never have too much RAM, though.

Is this a computer that you have previously use for PT without issues?
Are you recording to a dedicated audio drive?
Have you done anything or changed anything recently if this is a computer that has done ok with PT in the past?

OK ...so you got plenty of RAM, how about a faster processor....still cheaper than a new computer...

fader-pro wrote:OK ...so you got plenty of RAM, how about a faster processor....still cheaper than a new computer...

Good point, we upgraded a G4 400 to a 1.25, while it wasn't exactly the same as true 1.25 (due to bus speed) it definitely increased the performance in noticable ways and ran great until we sold it.

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