To Sub or not to Sub that is the wolfing question.....

I NEED BOTTOM END....my mixes lack low end because i'm
failing to hear it. I sit under my desk monitoring the low frequencies and take other precautions while mixing and shit like that. And although my kicks project heavily in the room, when played on other sources like a pair of computer speakers, a boom box, portable cd player in headphones and or car stereo, the drums are missing that boom. I've
got 808 and 909 kick drums layered beneath the
acoustic drum samples and still they seem frail.
Something is hindering my sense of understanding. I'm
losing those frequencies during the mixdown phase.
Do you think my speakers are spread too wide and too far from where i'm sitting and their proximity from the walls? They are rear ported but also remember that they're only 5 & 3/4" woofers. Does the woofer size play a major role? Of course, my speaker acts mainly as a close proximity mid to high range monitor and has a most difficult time displaying frequencies which drop below 40hz or so.

Should I invest in a subwoofer unit, and if so, how do
I work it into my set up? I only have the use of 2
channels? Do they normally have x-overs? I'm sure they
do....Thanks.

DRUMZ.1

i wouldnt get a sub cause then your overcompensating that range. It will color your sense so your mixes wont translate well. get better monitors, try placing them around. It should be an equlaterial triangle from your head to there distance apart. and start eqing at 100 to 280 hz to beef up the low end. Also subtract eq from the drum s that you arent trying to get bottom out of. Roll them off so alot of mids. Good for kicks casue then you get the snap more and then use an 808 for the thud.

Thanks bing.....I basically sit within, or at a point of bisection, where a pyramid of equilateral sound forms. If that is what one might refer to it as. I have Alesis monitor one speakers.....what other speaks would you recommend? I was considering the EVENT Precision 8" units, but 1300.00 seems rather excessive.

you really need to go out and listen to different monitors with a real good reference cd. Dres Chronic 2000 is a good one to try out speakers with cause it was mixed and mastered at million dollar studios with 20 year exp engineers. So if it sounds thick and banging on those then there good monitors. But its a personal taste. I would look between the $400 to $800 range for some good quailty monitors. I actually use the samson resolv 65a's which hit nice and have a midrange dial to monitor with different settings to reference. They are cheap budget ones, but i cant complain. They trasnlate real nice to car and other mediums. And the bass response is proper. But its all subjective to your ear. Dont use a reference cd though thats real lofi like primo or madlib ish, casue its not the best repesnstation to test out speakers with. With the real quailty recordings they really shine coming out of pro monitors.

The problem with monitor ones IIRC is that the bass ports are on the back, so if they are close to a back wall the bass is way off. just play a track that has the bass right on all the other systems then listen to what it sounds like on your monitor ones, then try and get the bass sounding like that on your tracks.

elmacaco wrote:The problem with monitor ones IIRC is that the bass ports are on the back, so if they are close to a back wall the bass is way off. just play a track that has the bass right on all the other systems then listen to what it sounds like on your monitor ones, then try and get the bass sounding like that on your tracks.

Good advice there - a reference CD is crucial. If you can get you favorite tunes sounding good in your room and on your speakers you're half way home. Try to keep the Monitor 1's away from the wall if you can. If not, put some bass traps back there (you can even make your own). Event makes some very good reference speakers. Not pretty for listening - but accurate, which is what you need. The 2020's (powered) also have a bass rolloff control on the back. If you turn the bass down on your speakers with an equalizer or rolloff control on your monitors, you will end up turning it up on your mixes. Also try to have a couple of different speaker options available. I listen on two sets in the control room, then go next door to the soundstage and take a listen there and also check it out in the office before I commit a tune to disk. If I'm recording someone else, I make 'em listen in thier car as well....

drumat!c wrote: although my kicks project heavily in the room, when played on other sources like a pair of computer speakers, a boom box, portable cd player in headphones and or car stereo, the drums are missing that boom.

It sounds to me like the low freq elements you're adding are too low to be reproduced on your average stereo.
It's nice to have those ultra lows for people with good stereos and sub-woofers......
.....but most boom boxes, stock car stereos, headphones, etc. don't go that low.

Add some low elements and eq that are more around the 100-200hz.
Mess around with the pitch of your 808/909 layers too. If you tune them a bit higher, maybe you can get them to register on other systems.

I used to have the same problem as you.......I realized I was concentrating too much on the really low stuff - like 40-60hz.

Instead of buying a sub-woofer for your studio, buy a cheap boom box that has an 'Auxiliary IN' jack. That way you could leave it permanently attached to your recording setup, and you can use it as a second monitor system. That way you won't have to burn a CD every time you want to hear your mix on a boom box.

These are all fantastic tips and very helpful. I've listened to professional cd's on my monitor 1's and they still sound incredible. I pay attention to the movement of the woofer. You don't want speaker rumble in your mixes, (kicks and bass) which mostly appear after sampling from vinyl (needle to groove). I'm not trying to achieve the same mixes as one would expect from a 100gs or more studio. But what I am trying to do, is make as much of an effort to achieve the best results I can in my studio environment (semi-low budget). I noticed that many studios have Monitor Ones or NS-10's on the meter bridge of their consoles. I also noticed that they have larger mid/low range speaker monitors (12" sub woofers) set within a reinforced wall cabinet. Ultimately i'm concerned with how i'm mixing the low end and why i'm not hearing it as well (i'm well aware of the speaker's ability to reproduce such low frequencies). I also think my discontent has something to do with how i'm compressing my drums during the mixdown phase; I don't use computers to compress or limit, so that might be one of the reasons......who knows? I really just wanted opinions on what speakers they felt had produced a nice quality sound - high, mid and low.

Thanks again for whatever advice you contributed.

DRUMZ.1

You can see how my speakers are set up in the image posted in my signature.....(this is not an advertisement or self promotion - hahah)

YO THAT ALIEN ON THE 60 IS ILL.....RIGHT?

Yo Drumatic, I'm loving the vibe of your studio man, looks real chill, and comfortable, lots of space.

As for your monitor ones, you can get them to work well, I would drop them down one crate so they are at your ear level when you are sitting down, also it could be what you are recording to, If you were using a reel to reel I don;t think you'd be having low bass problems, but if it's digital you could look into your soundcard. Take the pro CD that sounds great on your system and record it through the chain you normally do with your music, mixer, compressors, everything, then compare how the sound changed.

Some times with nearfields the louder you go the more innacurate they are, since room reflections become more of a factor, so bring em down to your level and aim em at your head, and listen low when you mix. Also try cutting the bass a bit on everything but the kick and bass elements, there may be some cancelation issues, but until you narrow it down it'll just be guess work until something works. A sub won;t really fix anything.

Drum - Listen to Itchy, dude took the words straight out my mouth.

you don't need a subwoofer, the boombox is a good idea though, alternatively you could get some small 3" speakers and just a/b between them and your monitors from your amp or mixing board. radio shack used to carry these knock off auratones that were great for this type of shit.

also you may want to try killing off the 808's for a bit. filtered sine waves will eat up a metric **** of your low end and make it a lot harder to fit anything in the low end frequencies that's actually hitting. i mean it's one thing if you are trying to make an 808 beat but if your just using them as a crutch to cover up weak drums or bass it wouldn't suprise me if you find you are just hurting yourself by layering subs under your kicks.

most importantly if you are going to use subs under your kicks, remember they have a pitch so you want to make sure they are in tune with your bassline. otherwise no ammount of eq'ing or gating is going to clean up that slop.

man get those monitors off those crates and onto the heaviest stands you can muster, correctly decoupled. then determine your room acoustic issues and get building some inexpensive bass traps. doing these two things will revolutionise your bass more than dropping $1300 on new monitors ever will

everything you need to know is here http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/postl ... ard=DESIGN

elmacaco wrote:Yo Drumatic, I'm loving the vibe of your studio man, looks real chill, and comfortable, lots of space.

That's the problem right there.
His setup is cool and looks really functional for production but not for mixing.
There is no focused center for the mix to be referenced from even before you get into the aspects of the room itself.
He needs to rearrange certain components without messing up his functional flow.
Define a mix position, there just isn't one in your setup the way it is.
It's real important to hear things while you are constructing but it's critical that you hear things when you track and mix.
I would get the pen and pad and start by sketching out various layouts to see how you could keep the workflow you are comfortable with and develop a mix position at the same time.
You have a decent amount of space so use it as effeciently as possible.