Battle between Software and hardware

Im not gonna deny that

roxstar wrote:"I prefer real sex to cyber sex"

haha, me too, but don't act like you ain't ever grabbed your johnson while surfing the net! Real sex is DEFINATELY the best, but cyber sex is aaight too though!

"That statement is so foolish. I guess the lambo doesn't drive $200,000 better than your stang either? $1000 is not a lot of money to everyone, and you can find better prices for gear, how much it's worth to you cash wise and the value of the machine are two different things and you keep equating them."

If I can beat a lamborghini down the quater mile, then your exactly right, it's doesn't drive $200,000 betteer than my stang, or any other car that can beat it. If I buy any $200,000 car, nothing less than $200,00 should beat me. I'd feel like a complete idiot if a honda civic blows my doors off.
Now if you have the money, and you've always wanted a" ___your dream car here__", then by all means, buy it. That's where cash and personal value don't matter. If you work at dunkin donuts, and your dream is to own a Z06 vette, you better wait till your money is right, cuz if you bought it while glazing donuts, your a complete fool. In this example, cash and personal value does matter. Enough about cars though...

"you're judging a machine on it's usefulness to you based on it;s price, if the 808 cost $100 your opinion would change, which is really punkish. "

Everyone on here that wants an MPC2500 is trying to get the cheapest price for it. The price is an option. If it wasn't, we'd all buy the new Korg Oasis for $8000. The price is an option for everything in life. House, cars, clothes.. anything. Your right, I would have an 808 if I could get it for $100...but since you claim they are so marvelous, you would probably have 10 of them!

Rox said:" If you shell out 5 grand for an ARP, you better have a DAMN good reason why you absolutely need it..."

" What if holmes has a lot of cash and just wants one to keep his crib warm? Who does he need to submit his reason to get approval? "

No one said he had to get approval, but if "holmes" got a lot of money, then that's his damn good reason. Money talks, nuff said.

No, I haven't bought any VST's yet.. I haven't even connected the MP to the computer, but even if I couldn't sell it, I wouldn't be mad. I think it was MPC4000XL that posted a shareware VST synth.. I would use it even if it sounded like crap. I make do with the worst of gear elc..trust me when I tell you this.. I've had a kawai R (something) drumachine that NONE of the pads worked. The electrical connector was lose, so you had to twist it up and hope it didn't die out on you. The screws were stripped out from the previous owner trying to repair it, so all the guts would fall out.. buttons, pads, etc if it was mishandled. My cure, duct tape, wrapped all around it, and I hookeup up the midi ports to the MPC and tapped away. My Vestax 05Pro fader is gone.. snapped off from crabbing, I have glue in my monitors because I blew the cone off, I hooked my samplers up with a headphone distribution device so I can use them all at the same time. MPC data dial almost dead, faders on my mixer are dying. But I can still make music with it. Sometimes you have to make due with what you got. Having the cash should not be the reason why you NEED something better. Not all rich people look like they have money.. some dress like they need YOUR spare change. When you make something out of nothing, it's very impressive. Madlib is the schyt not because he can make a hot beat, but because he can make a hot beat in an a hotel, with an sp-303 and some samples. Have you heard,"yesterdays new quintet?" I'll make and assumption and say that NO-ONE on here, with their pro-tools, their, 24bits, their 100gb drives, usb, firewire, G6, Analog tube compressor whatevers can't make anything close to it. Another assumption I will make is that he's probably makes enough money to buy whatever instruments he desires.
Time & dedication can produce everything you can ever dream of. When your time is right, and you get what you've been waiting for, no dollar amount can replace your patience. And that goes way beyond the desire for any synth or 808.

Yeah it's good theres no internet gangsterism going on, but we're missing the point.

"you're judging a machine on it's usefulness to you based on it;s price, if the 808 cost $100 your opinion would change, which is really punkish. "

Everyone on here that wants an MPC2500 is trying to get the cheapest price for it. The price is an option. If it wasn't, we'd all buy the new Korg Oasis for $8000. The price is an option for everything in life. House, cars, clothes.. anything. Your right, I would have an 808 if I could get it for $100...but since you claim they are so marvelous, you would probably have 10 of them!

See here's my point exactly, the price of something does not make it a good or a bad machine, you have made a personal decision that expensive gear isn;t worth your while, and that you like cheap gear, but saying that expensive gear sounds the same as cheap gear, when you never heard the expensive gear, is unfounded, you're just saying that because it is in line with your opinion. Can you see that?

I don't have Neuman mics, they cost several thousand dollars and are pretty much top of the heap. I don't go around saying that a neuman won;'t make my recordings sound better than my sm58, because the price is high, and if I found one cheap all of a sudden the neuman is the bomb, come on now partner.

I'm not knocking the vsti's, I know what they can do and I know they sound good, but they do not compare very well with the real thing soundwise, particularly when we are talking arp 2600, since the patching of feedback paths doesn't achieve the same results in software than in hardware, and that kind of chaos is where the beauty of the 2600 lies.

That's all I'm saying, you can;t make that statement based on the marketing, they are trying to sell it, and they are not going to tell you where the software lacks.

Bob Moog on the Moog Modular V:

Arturia's Moog Modular V is a high quality computer emulation of the analog modular synthesizer that Moog Music® originally introduced. Traditional front panel controls and switches are clearly and accurately displayed, while virtual patch cords can be plugged in or removed with the click of the mouse. The basic audio generating and modifying functions are instantly available, and so are envelope generators, LFO's, and other traditional control functions. The Modular V offers important contemporary features like MIDI, easy loading and saving of patches, and polyphonic tone generation. With the Modular V installed in your computer, you can develop a wide range of modular synth effects, and then program or play them as you wish.I am delighted that Arturia's Moog Modular V is adding a new dimension to an instrument tradition that has a special meaning to so many musicians."


Nothing about sounding like a moog modular because it just doesn't. It doesnt sound bad, just not like a moog modular. All I am saying is don;t say it sounds just like the real thing unless you really know from experience.

The whole thing about money and your opinion of things is a separate issue that I think is pretty clear now.

No, I haven't bought any VST's yet.. I haven't even connected the MP to the computer, but even if I couldn't sell it, I wouldn't be mad. I think it was MPC4000XL that posted a shareware VST synth.. I would use it even if it sounded like ****. I make do with the worst of gear elc..trust me when I tell you this.. I've had a kawai R (something) drumachine that NONE of the pads worked. The electrical connector was lose, so you had to twist it up and hope it didn't die out on you. The screws were stripped out from the previous owner trying to repair it, so all the guts would fall out.. buttons, pads, etc if it was mishandled. My cure, duct tape, wrapped all around it, and I hookeup up the midi ports to the MPC and tapped away. My Vestax 05Pro fader is gone.. snapped off from crabbing, I have glue in my monitors because I blew the cone off, I hooked my samplers up with a headphone distribution device so I can use them all at the same time. MPC data dial almost dead, faders on my mixer are dying. But I can still make music with it. Sometimes you have to make due with what you got.

I hear you, make due, for sure. I love cheap sound sources too, and I'm not gonna wait until I have X piece of gear to get busy, but I don;t think most serious cats do. And if you want to talk t the unserious cats that do that, well, don;t do it here, we don;t want them getting in on our conversation.

you might want to take better care of your gear though;)

Having the cash should not be the reason why you NEED something better.

Absolutely, but not every purchase is based on need. I have one pair of sneakers, cats on here have closet fulls of sneakers. It's all in how you define need. I would tear up that real time Q link of the 2500, I can;t hate on someone wanting to get it. if someone is hooked by the marketing hype and selling their gear to get one making some kind of mistake, that's his dumb ass problem, I'm not worried about cats too dumb to shop for gear wisely. it's not rocket science.

Madlib is the schyt not because he can make a hot beat, but because he can make a hot beat in an a hotel, with an sp-303 and some samples. Have you heard,"yesterdays new quintet?"

Madlib is the shyt because he makes hot beats, not because of what he uses. That is where you're dead wrong.

madlib uses all sorts of gear, he's got a 4000, sp 1200, so 606, a bunch of hard disk recorders, keyboards, bass, a drum set, mad wax that he pays a bunch of cash for, I disagree completely. Madlib is hot because he makes hot beats, not because people sweat how little gear he needs. He's just telling cats to make their music regardless, but madlib used an MPC 2000 on YNQ, check the album cover (oh, you probably didn;t buy that either huh? )

First, let me show you and anyone else that is reading...
http://www.vintagesynth.com/misc/timewarp2600.shtml
Listen to the demo.. I hear a difference, but it ain't THAT big of a deal.
ok.. fight!

"the price of something does not make it a good or a bad machine, you have made a personal decision that expensive gear isn;t worth your while, and that you like cheap gear, but saying that expensive gear sounds the same as cheap gear, when you never heard the expensive gear, is unfounded,"

I never said expensive and cheap gear was the same thing. I said my 808 samples sound good.. good enough for me not to spend $1000+ on the actual machine. I wouldn't buy the 808 for $100 because it was good... I'd buy it to resell it later. That's a $900+ profit! only a fool would pass up a $100 TR-808.

"I don't have Neuman mics, they cost several thousand dollars and are pretty much top of the heap. I don't go around saying that a neuman won;'t make my recordings sound better than my sm58"

I wouldn't either.. give me a neuman and I'll take it! But let me make a platinum hit with a radio shack mic. Would recording on a neuman mic make it double platinum? Hell no. Make the money first, buy the neuman later. If you want, re-record the same track with a neuman mic later if it makes you happy, and make even more money off the re-issue.
Your sm58 can sound just like a neuman, and a neuman can sound as bad as a radio shack. It's not the mic, it's who's behind it. Your sm58 would sound like Mariah if she was behind it too! Let her sing on one of your beats and I bet you'd be as happy as a phaggot with a bag of dicks! ..even without a neuman.

"That's all I'm saying, you can;t make that statement based on the marketing,"

I'm not, I was just using that as a lil support. I want to use VST synth's because I can create unusual sounds, and because they are cheap... in some cases, free. Only I can make the decision if it sounds good. Most of my decisions when I was new to music was off other peoples opinions. I spend thousands of money on gear just to sell it later. My main tools now are MPC2000XL, MC-303, and vinly and my turntable. If I was to list everything I have owned, it would take me too long. So marketing and opinions have verry little to do with what I use.

"Madlib is the shyt because he makes hot beats, not because of what he uses. That is where you're dead wrong. "

Madlib by himself is aaight. Lootpack, quasimoto, etc, are straight. I have them all. I'm a madlib fan, but it's not because his beats are on fire though. If you notice, I mentioned, "yesterdays new quintet." He's creative, but he's real. He always talks about what gear he uses and tells it like it is.. that's why I like madlib. Actually his brother OHO NO makes some x-tra nice tracks. If madlib had a $100,000 studio, I don't think he would be in the same position. When you make something out of nothing it makes peoples eyes open up.. What? He uses a 303? Everyone knows that. I bet timberland doesn't rock a 303. He's tight too, but if he did, it would make a lot of producers be like WTF??

"but madlib used an MPC 2000 on YNQ, check the album cover (oh, you probably didn;t buy that either huh? Wink )"

haha, I never noticed that.. what YNQ are you talking about.. I have like 3 of them. But I know he used a lot of loops in those tracks.. even though the loops wern't the real thing, it still sounded good though.. didn't it!

roxstar wrote:Your sm58 can sound just like a neuman

damnitman!!!!

roxstar wrote:First, let me show you and anyone else that is reading...
http://www.vintagesynth.com/misc/timewarp2600.shtml
Listen to the demo.. I hear a difference, but it ain't THAT big of a deal.
ok.. fight!

I've used both the real 2600 and the timewarp, side by side. Sound is similar but lacking where most digital lacks in analog emulation. I don't own either nor plan on it, but I am comfortable enough with that that I don't need either to be useless because of the other.

I never said expensive and cheap gear was the same thing. I said my 808 samples sound good.. good enough for me not to spend $1000+ on the actual machine. I wouldn't buy the 808 for $100 because it was good... I'd buy it to resell it later. That's a $900+ profit! only a fool would pass up a $100 TR-808.

Again, I see a machine and I see an instrument, not tied up cash, I judge it's sound.

"I don't have Neuman mics, they cost several thousand dollars and are pretty much top of the heap. I don't go around saying that a neuman won;'t make my recordings sound better than my sm58"

I wouldn't either.. give me a neuman and I'll take it! But let me make a platinum hit with a radio shack mic. Would recording on a neuman mic make it double platinum? Hell no. Make the money first, buy the neuman later. If you want, re-record the same track with a neuman mic later if it makes you happy, and make even more money off the re-issue.

This is just fantasy.

Your sm58 can sound just like a neuman, and a neuman can sound as bad as a radio shack. It's not the mic, it's who's behind it. Your sm58 would sound like Mariah if she was behind it too! ..even without a neuman.

You've obviously never heard a neuman. this is one of the things that the internet really makes information worse for people. people diss expensive gear they have never used and act like it doesn't make a difference. the shyt is expensive because it got it, it's not a scam that you are smart enough to avoid by only buying behringer and m-audio stuff.

Again, don;t diss what you don;t know. You can be happy with your radioshack mic, but don't pretend that the expensive stuff is a rip off just because it's half the cost of your car, a lot of high quality shyt goes in there and you can hear it in the sound.

Actually mariah is probably a bad example for that RS mic or the 58, cuz her range is so high that the mic response would be key, I bet the RS would overload too quickly for it to be a good choice.

"That's all I'm saying, you can;t make that statement based on the marketing,"

I'm not, I was just using that as a lil support. I want to use VST synth's because I can create unusual sounds, and because they are cheap... in some cases, free. Only I can make the decision if it sounds good. Most of my decisions when I was new to music was off other peoples opinions. I spend thousands of money on gear just to sell it later. My main tools now are MPC2000XL, MC-303, and vinly and my turntable. If I was to list everything I have owned, it would take me too long. So marketing and opinions have verry little to do with what I use.

I don't care about what you use, you just regurgitated the company line saying it sounds the same from some soundclips when you don;t know the first thing about it. Like a wise man's sig once said "you don;t have to lie to kick it"

Madlib by himself is aaight. Lootpack, quasimoto, etc, are straight. I have them all. I'm a madlib fan, but it's not because his beats are on fire though.

That just shows how much money plays into your judgement.

If you notice, I mentioned, "yesterdays new quintet." He's creative, but he's real. He always talks about what gear he uses and tells it like it is.

Yeah he does, but some people think he's lyin about only using the 303. not me, but a lot of cats think he's fronting, cuz he does have a 4000 chilling at home.

that's why I like madlib. Actually his brother OHO NO makes some x-tra nice tracks. If madlib had a $100,000 studio, I don't think he would be in the same position.

I thought it wasn't the gear but who was behind it?

When you make something out of nothing it makes peoples eyes open up..

Sure, but that's just skill. using cheap gear doesn't mean you're in the same league. often people stick with that kind of gear to have an excuse, but I'm all for a platinum hit with an RS mic, let me know when it happens.

the 303 is not nothing, it's actually a very powerful machine.

haha, I never noticed that.. what YNQ are you talking about.. I have like 3 of them. But I know he used a lot of loops in those tracks.. even though the loops wern't the real thing, it still sounded good though.. didn't it!

Angles without edges.

what round r we in?

just because a car is faster than the next doesn't neccessarily mean that it has to cost more.

i had a lexus gs400 that had a 0-60 of 5.8 sec. it was very fast, but the hadling wasn't all that. the total cost fully loaded was $59k

i now own a BMW Dinan 3. and this car has a 0-6 of 5.3 sec. and handles like a mutha. it is a very impressive car cause of the execution of several things. total cost fully loaded with the full S3 package $61k.

both cars pretty close in price and 0-60 times but entirely different cars.

the new m5 will kill a lambo in 0-60 yet i am sure lambo is not concerned with bmw affecting their sales. if u want a lambo u also consider ferarri not bmw or honda.

Use what you have fun using...if it is a hobby. If it is your job...use what gets the job done right / best and makes your client happy. By the way, when madlib makes beats for major label artists...he doesn't use an SP-303... he uses the 303 on his stones throw stuff generally speaking.

"Again, don;t diss what you don;t know. You can be happy with your radioshack mic, but don't pretend that the expensive stuff is a rip off just because it's half the cost of your car, a lot of high quality shyt goes in there and you can hear it in the sound."

I'm not dissin anything. A $3000 neuman should only be in the hands of those that can afford it, or someone that is really going to take advantage of it. I'm not impressed if Trick Daddy uses a neuman.. even if he could afford it, his voice will not sound any different than if he used any decent mic. Trick Daddy ain't gonna sound like Nat King Cole with any Mic. I'll give you an example, and this one makes sence. A kid wants to play a keyboard. You don't buy him a Grand piano to start with (unless you have the cash).. you'd probably buy him a decent little Casio with some stock sound. Now, you give that same casio to a person with talent, and the casio will sound good. Not as good as the same player would on a grand piano, but still good. I never once said expensive equipment was overhyped. It's just not for everyone. Technology has caught up to the point where casio's sound damn good. Not like they used to 20 years ago with the dog bark samples, but sound wise, even a DJ-X is a real decent start for any novice. As you learn more, step the game up, and buy a triton. If that ain't enough for you, grab an Oasis. A neuman is a professional mic, and ARP 2600 is a professional synth. As far as I'm concerned, no-one on here even needs to mention the two machines. Were not making THAT kind of music. Dudes are talking about making drums grimey. Where does a $3000 mic come into this conversation. I was talking about freeware or low cost VST's of expensive synths. I may never buy a neuman, but I'll buy a plug-in that can emulate it.
In my field of music, cats brag about making beats in 15 minutes and getting rich. They talk about not even writing the lyrics to a song and making platinum albums. MPC's, SP's, 303's. Budget equipment. Most NEVER see a real studio..some rather make beats in their homes ((madlib, Dilla) What kinda music do you make??? 3 grand for a mic, 5 grand for a synth? You burn your cd's on a spacecraft computer or something? C'mon Elc, be real with me yo! I want ARP and Neuman sound, don't get me wrong. Were in the year 2005, technology should be able to let me 'somewhat' emulate a 40 year old synth or mic shouldn't it? Yes it does; and I'm gonna use it, or make the most out what I already got. That's Hip-hop! 2 turntables and a microphone. They never once said, 2 birch wood paneled phonographs and a large diaphram condensor neuman. That's where I'm coming from.

"when madlib makes beats for major label artists...he doesn't use an SP-303."

eh, Yoshimi, this message isn't directed to you.. I'm just replying and adding to the message.
It really doesn't matter wht Madlib uses because that will be an entirely new long subject. The fact is dude is a gully producer that can make something out of nothing and he's making a lot of other producer look like fools. My city is known for it's cars and music. This is Detroit; Motown. We all heard the music..Stevie wonder, temptations, Diana ross, blah, blah, blah.. Their studio back in the day was a state of the art 4 TRACK. Barry gordy used to engineer some of the music ON THE PHONE at HIS home. (can we say low budget?..Top quality, I think not.) He would say, "turn such and such up.. lower this, etc." Motown was built off a loan for less than $700. Gordy HAD NO DOE! (Elc, I know your reading his, if you don't believe me, check for yourself.) The piano was worn out, the equipment looks like something in a re-sale shop. Many of the groups didn't even have a name, but would think one up at the last minute. What made Motown a sucess was Gordy's knowledge, and the talent from the groups. Even on the wackest equipment they made things happen. It sounded good to the rest of the world. Nowadays, if someone says they use a 4 track, folks will laugh at them. Why? How many of you right now have recorder with 16+ tracks..probably a couple hundred virtual tracks! Keyboards with 300+ different sounding instruments and the capacity to hold expansion cards to give you 1000 more? Drum machines with features that you can't even use? Fax's, printers, computers, and the ability to create a song and put it on cd the same HOUR... Someone in Indonesia can be groovin' to a beat you just made in japin within minutes of you putting it online....and we have the gaul to have an excuse why we can't succeed? Most are so dang lazy, even with all this equipment, they just use loops. They need someone else to make THE BEAT for them!! Spend MORE money on the sample cd, get better quality loops, and if you buy the right keyboard, that schyt will even play a rhythm for you to lay on the beat. Damn..all you need now is a neuman mic to make your vocals tizzzite! Niggum please!
I'm sure Gordy got a couple Neuman's..the best piano's, and the best of everything NOW, but it doesn't take expensive gear to get good results. You don't need the best to get started, but you have to get started to get the best.

"You don't need the best to get started"

But once you are started you will want the best.

My housemate has a $3,000 Jupiter 8, no computer sounds CLOSE. Not even Reaktor, from what i have heard/done. Never mind the control factor. Same goes for my Wurlitzer.

If you want that sound, you are going to need a Jupiter. After listening to the sound it produced, I understand soft synths in a new way---i.e. most of them just suck. Reaktor/Kontakt and a couple others are OK.

You can some things well on a computer, others not so well. Nice hardware is better---tracks don't sound as flat with a variety of pieces used, dedicated controls, more research and development.

Bottom line: Computer programmers need to step it up to make their stuff compete with the real thing sonically, except the samplers and digital synths which are nice to do on a computer (although filters aren't there yet either!!). Even VA synths are better hardware right now.

"You can some things well on a computer, others not so well. Nice hardware is better---tracks don't sound as flat with a variety of pieces used, dedicated controls, more research and development. "

I agree with ya 100% duke. but if you don't have a jupiter.. can't afford, can't find, or can't use one, do the things a computer does well (for now,) and get the jupiter later. [drum roll]...Ta-daa!

the reason why most native vsti's don't sound exactly like the real thing is because of the lack of native power. when programmers r writing code they have to have to deal with the limitation of native systems. take the tc standalone reverb units. they r all simulated and should be easily copied in the native world, but a computer can't handle those complx algorhythms without additional dsp

some of the best synths in reaktor will bring the most powerfulcomps to its knees. with the uad-1 card they have a 1176ln and 1176se. the se uses less dsp cause it's not as full emulation. it does sound close to the 1176ln, but missing something. ua emulates circuits and most others emulate the result of a signal passing through the circuit. visit their webzine and u will learn a lot about how the do their emulations

You guys are just nuts....there is a place for both VST and hardware in any studio...use the right tool for the job at hand....and if you put better gear in front of any decent musician he will make better music....take away his k-mart guitar and put a les paul in his hands and he will be 20% faster overnight. Take away the casio keys and give him one with aftertouch, velocity, and better sounds and his music will have better dynamics, cleaner sound and just be better in general. The key here - decent musician. If you're good, better tools will help you sound better. Take away Picasso's paints and brushes, give him a roller and a gallon of white paint and he;s just another house painter.....

If DSP is the issue, how come those Yamaha boards like the EX5 sound so good with such limited DSP? Why can't a computer with a p4 3.2 convincingly emulate some hardware with (albeit a couple) of slower Motorola DSP chips?

Is it processor or programming holding this stuff back?