MPC2500 - "Must do's or Must Have's"

jahrome wrote:Every synth has prepackaged presets..including the analog or analog-modeled synths.

The ROMplers have hundreds of sampled waveforms from real instruments. These companies create hundreds/thousands of presets/patches from these waveforms..which you can tweak the presets to your taste or create your own sounds. You can't do this with the analog synths.

How do you work that one out? of course you can! It seems to me that the analog style synths have more flexibility because their building blocks are tiny waveforms that are pure, ie. sine, square, triangle etc. The ROMplers' building blocks are larger samples of real sounds in some cases (others not) and therefore you have less flexibility because more of the sound is 'pre-packaged'. Do you get what i mean? I'm not saying that the analog synths are the be-all and end-all, just that if you use one of these ROMpler things for it's 'real instrument' sounds, aren't you restricting yourself to what the manufacturers have put in themselves, rather than the sound creation process being your responsibility?

Mr modnaR wrote:
How do you work that one out? of course you can! It seems to me that the analog style synths have more flexibility because their building blocks are tiny waveforms that are pure, ie. sine, square, triangle etc. The ROMplers' building blocks are larger samples of real sounds in some cases (others not) and therefore you have less flexibility because more of the sound is 'pre-packaged'. Do you get what i mean? I'm not saying that the analog synths are the be-all and end-all, just that if you use one of these ROMpler things for it's 'real instrument' sounds, aren't you restricting yourself to what the manufacturers have put in themselves, rather than the sound creation process being your responsibility?

Get it...synth...

BDRAKE wrote:
Dont sleep on the Triton Extreme. That tube is all that.

The Triton Extreme is cool but it doesn't excite me anymore than the Triton or Triton Studio. Now if it had Oasys technolgy The tube is not that impressive if you have worked with gear that have/use better quality tubes.

Analog style synths do have waveforms but you can not duplicate many real instruments as well as a Rompler which has sounds sampled from real insrtruments. It is not any less flexible. Romplers like the Fantom and XV can load other sample libraries to use as well. The presets you refer to are created using one or more of the sampled waveforms. You can take waveforms of two sampled instruments and combine them to create an entirely different sound.

Analog synths have their place...leads, percussion, bass, sound effects. But the Romplers and samplers are the work horses.

jahrome wrote:The Triton Extreme is cool but it doesn't excite me anymore than the Triton or Triton Studio. Now if it had Oasys technolgy The tube is not that impressive if you have worked with gear that have/use better quality tubes.

Analog style synths do have waveforms but you can not duplicate many real instruments as well as a Rompler which has sounds sampled from real insrtruments. It is not any less flexible. Romplers like the Fantom and XV can load other sample libraries to use as well. The presets you refer to are created using one or more of the sampled waveforms. You can take waveforms of two sampled instruments and combine them to create an entirely different sound.

Analog synths have their place...leads, percussion, bass, sound effects. But the Romplers and samplers are the work horses.

I get what you're saying, and i agree with the analog synths having their place, but why not just use a sampler rather than a ROMpler? I get that they can load in more sample libraries to use, but so can samplers, plus they can record their own, creating more original patches.

Also i can see that some ROMplers may have more extensive synth-like qualities than a sampler, to transform the basic sampled waveforms, but this is the only upside to them IMHO.

Really, having used Gigastudio, who's sample library size is only determined by your hard drive capacity, i cannot see a hardware sampler or ROMpler that would do any better, especially considering the price!

And no, i am not a Tascam rep

Mr modnaR wrote:
I get what you're saying, and i agree with the analog synths having their place, but why not just use a sampler rather than a ROMpler? I get that they can load in more sample libraries to use, but so can samplers, plus they can record their own, creating more original patches.

Also i can see that some ROMplers may have more extensive synth-like qualities than a sampler, to transform the basic sampled waveforms, but this is the only upside to them IMHO.

Really, having used Gigastudio, who's sample library size is only determined by your hard drive capacity, i cannot see a hardware sampler or ROMpler that would do any better, especially considering the price!

And no, i am not a Tascam rep

Actually, Giga Studio is something I have been thinking about. However, there is no place in my area where I can demo the software to see if it fits my needs. I do have Motu's Mach 5...but it is a sample player and not an actual sampler.

Sampler vs Rompler?? The Fantom XR is both so you don't have to choose. The XV-5080 is a Rompler and Sample-player so it is basically both with a compromise. Romplers have all the sounds you need and many can be expanded with more sounds. With samplers, you still have to invest in getting the right sounds. Now if Yamaha, Korg, Roland, etc. put out sample CD Roms that have the complete patches/presets/perfromances of their flagship Romplers, I would most likely jump all over them. But since they don't, you have to spend time finding the right sample CD Roms to fit your needs...and they best ones are not cheap..sometimes costing as much and more as the Romplers.

So from what I am hearing from you as well as reading between the lines....why do you care so little for Romplers?

aaight... so i went to GC today and copped me a fantom x6. i figured the price of the XR alone was $1300 plus the midi controller alone woulda been over the price of the x6. took it home wid me and this thing is sick. i demoed the motif but i think the mixer and sequencer feature on the x6 sold me.

thanks for the advice peeplez...

jahrome wrote:Actually, Giga Studio is something I have been thinking about. However, there is no place in my area where I can demo the software to see if it fits my needs. I do have Motu's Mach 5...but it is a sample player and not an actual sampler.

Sampler vs Rompler?? The Fantom XR is both so you don't have to choose. The XV-5080 is a Rompler and Sample-player so it is basically both with a compromise. Romplers have all the sounds you need and many can be expanded with more sounds. With samplers, you still have to invest in getting the right sounds. Now if Yamaha, Korg, Roland, etc. put out sample CD Roms that have the complete patches/presets/perfromances of their flagship Romplers, I would most likely jump all over them. But since they don't, you have to spend time finding the right sample CD Roms to fit your needs...and they best ones are not cheap..sometimes costing as much and more as the Romplers.

So from what I am hearing from you as well as reading between the lines....why do you care so little for Romplers?

I don't know really i guess it's that they seem to take the creative process out of making a track. your line: "Romplers have all the sounds you need and many can be expanded with more sounds. With samplers, you still have to invest in getting the right sounds." makes me shudder a bit, because it seems that a lot of people rely on the big manufacturers to supply them sounds, which i honestly think is a tragedy, because i this this is one of the root causes of the 'genericness' of modern music. I have heard of people saying that their track is better and more 'cutting edge' than someone else's because they have used what seems like a preset sound on the latest rompler. I'm not aiming this at you particularly Jahrome, in fact i can see the advantage of having a large bank of preset sounds to get your track's contruction underway fast to keep the ideas fresh, it's just that i choose to make these sounds. I was just curious as to why people would use these boxes, when i think i'd start using them on a track, but by the end of it find myself changing out all the preset sounds for something more personal.

/vendetta against ROMplers

I think you are still missing my point. I am not just talking about using presets. These Romplers are still synths. You can do what ever you want to the sounds. You can make (program) the sounds to your own taste.

Generic modern music?? Maybe..but this is the sound that artists and some fans like. But you can easily listen to golden oldies and say..yeah, that is a Rhodes..or that was created with a Moog or Hammond, etc.

If I had to choose only one sound module or keyboard...it would be a Rompler hands down. This is the next best thing to having a real instrument. An analog synth is not up to this task...standing on its own.

jahrome wrote:I think you are still missing my point. I am not just talking about using presets. These Romplers are still synths. You can do what ever you want to the sounds. You can make (program) the sounds to your own taste.

Generic modern music?? Maybe..but this is the sound that artists and some fans like. But you can easily listen to golden oldies and say..yeah, that is a Rhodes..or that was created with a Moog or Hammond, etc.

If I had to choose only one sound module or keyboard...it would be a Rompler hands down. This is the next best thing to having a real instrument. An analog synth is not up to this task...standing on its own.

i guess that's my point, the ROMpler emulates real instruments, and the analog synths ARE instruments in their own right, which are sometimes emulated themselves in a ROMpler!

I don't doubt they are fantastic at what they do, i'm just saying they're not for me. I agree that their sounds are craved by artists and fans alike, i guess i just disagree with the whole concept of a bunch of artists with the same sound set as their starting point. It's pretty much the same with Reason, everyone who owns the software has the same set of tools to work with, although, IMO they're more flexible than a ROMpler, with Reason being essentially modular. This brings me back to your point, and i do agree that it's what you do with the tools that counts, it's just that, for me a sampler seems to me to be a better investment than a ROMpler, as they can load in any sound you want, whereas a lot of ROMplers have to load compatible sounds in.

ok, i'm done! still not sold on the idea of a rompler over a sampler, but each to their own i guess!

peace.

i guess that's my point, the ROMpler emulates real instruments, and the analog synths ARE instruments in their own right, which are sometimes emulated themselves in a ROMpler!

I don't doubt they are fantastic at what they do, i'm just saying they're not for me. I agree that their sounds are craved by artists and fans alike, i guess i just disagree with the whole concept of a bunch of artists with the same sound set as their starting point. It's pretty much the same with Reason, everyone who owns the software has the same set of tools to work with, although, IMO they're more flexible than a ROMpler, with Reason being essentially modular. This brings me back to your point, and i do agree that it's what you do with the tools that counts, it's just that, for me a sampler seems to me to be a better investment than a ROMpler, as they can load in any sound you want, whereas a lot of ROMplers have to load compatible sounds in.

ok, i'm done! still not sold on the idea of a rompler over a sampler, but each to their own i guess!

peace.

Really...I don't see the big debate here. You have a choice..actually, you have choices. Buy one or both...or several of each if that is what you like.

The Rompler doesn't emulate real instruments...it is filled with multi-sampled real instruments.

The analog synths that you love have plenty of presets that you can use as a starting point. No different than a Rompler. You can use these presets or start patches from scratch..the same thing is done with a Rompler.

Many of the Romplers today allow you to use up to 4 different tones (waveforms) to create a patch from. You can edit each indivdual patch: Pitch envelopes, pan, LFOs, velocity, cut-off, reso, attack, release, etc. Many of the same functions that many analog synths have. Yes, there are Romplers that have modeled analog synths functions. You can't blame a machine for the way people use it. If people don't want to program, than they are left with using the presets. Its their choice. Its the music that results from these presets. Who cares if Stevie Wonder created a masterpiece on an analog synth or a Rompler?

Now the debate over Rompler or Sampler Don't you know that in most products today..they are practically one of the same?? Fantom is a Rompler and Sampler. All the highend keyboard workstations are Romplers and Samplers. You mentioned Giga Sampler. It comes loaded with multi-sampled instruments on a CD/DVD Rom. Well, Romplers like the Fantom have multi-sampled instruments burned into its Rom. What ever floats your boat

Samplers have no advantage over Romplers when it comes to what formats files they can use. You may have been misinformed. If you do find a file in a particular format..best believe there is a software program available that can covert the file into any format you want/need.

jahrome wrote:Really...I don't see the big debate here. You have a choice..actually, you have choices. Buy one or both...or several of each if that is what you like.

The Rompler doesn't emulate real instruments...it is filled with multi-sampled real instruments.

The analog synths that you love have plenty of presets that you can use as a starting point. No different than a Rompler. You can use these presets or start patches from scratch..the same thing is done with a Rompler.

Many of the Romplers today allow you to use up to 4 different tones (waveforms) to create a patch from. You can edit each indivdual patch: Pitch envelopes, pan, LFOs, velocity, cut-off, reso, attack, release, etc. Many of the same functions that many analog synths have. Yes, there are Romplers that have modeled analog synths functions. You can't blame a machine for the way people use it. If people don't want to program, than they are left with using the presets. Its their choice. Its the music that results from these presets. Who cares if Stevie Wonder created a masterpiece on an analog synth or a Rompler?

Now the debate over Rompler or Sampler Don't you know that in most products today..they are practically one of the same?? Fantom is a Rompler and Sampler. All the highend keyboard workstations are Romplers and Samplers. You mentioned Giga Sampler. It comes loaded with multi-sampled instruments on a CD/DVD Rom. Well, Romplers like the Fantom have multi-sampled instruments burned into its Rom. What ever floats your boat

Samplers have no advantage over Romplers when it comes to what formats files they can use. You may have been misinformed. If you do find a file in a particular format..best believe there is a software program available that can covert the file into any format you want/need.

ok ok you're convincing me that they can be a good thing. Aren't most rompler's wave roms on proprietary pcbs? in that case how do you create your own? i know that the proteus thingys could accept burnt wave roms that you had made your self on an Emu sampler, but that's hardly workflow-tastic, is it?

I may have to look into one of these sampler/rompler jobbies though, they sound quite fun, and, yes, i must admit i guess i didn't know just how extensive the editing was on these things! thank you for putting me on the right track jahrome! muchos gracias!

yo rome... i noticed that you got an x6 too. can you tell me how you have it setup? r u using the mpc as a sampler and the x6 as the sequencer? or the other way around?

got any srx boards you wanna sell?

I have a Motif ES. It has 1859 basic waveforms including sine, saw, and other basic waveforms. You take several of these waveforms and create a patch from them. You have the freedom to edit the patches as you see fit and add effects, eq, etc.

Now with the Fantom, XV-5080, Triton Rack. several other rack mount Romplers/Sampler/Sample player combos...you have the option of using sampled waveforms/sounds instead of or in combination with the onboard waveforms.

These are no different then what is in Reason (which I own) but infrequently use. Reason doesn't have a real sampler. Just sample players and analog modeled synths.

jahrome wrote:I have a Motif ES. It has 1859 basic waveforms including sine, saw, and other basic waveforms. You take several of these waveforms and create a patch from them. You have the freedom to edit the patches as you see fit and add effects, eq, etc.

Now with the Fantom, XV-5080, Triton Rack. several other rack mount Romplers/Sampler/Sample player combos...you have the option of using sampled waveforms/sounds instead of or in combination with the onboard waveforms.

These are no different then what is in Reason (which I own) but infrequently use. Reason doesn't have a real sampler. Just sample players and analog modeled synths.

ok i get the attraction. does the motif es not have a sampler then, i thought it did, or is it that it just can't combine sampled waveforms with onboard ones? i have reason too, i do like the fact it can use higher resolution samples than 44.1kHz 16Bit and is completely rewireable. personally i still find reason better value for money. sure the effects ain't all that, but there's rewire and the leftover change that you save when you bought it instead of a Motif/Fantom etc.! lol only pulling your leg Jahrome! i get that you like these boxes, and i'm sure they're good, but i'd rather spend less on a piece of software that does the same thing, if not more.

peace man

good points, but i vote for the triton extreme.

ive owned the triton le, and triton studio. I agree that they need to update the library, but the triton extreme includes alot more sounds than the studio or le. They are sounds from existing expansion boards.

and for the price, its definately a good deal.

anyways, for me, its more about the user interface on the triton. Its very very fast and creative. I really like the arp, and combi mode. Even if you dont know much about synthesis you are up and running. If you know alot about synthesis you can really use it. If you add the moss board that is the shit too. But i never really liked the interface on the motif and roland X.

The fantom xr is definately more up to date as far as sounds, but i think tweaking ability is more important than an updated sound set. Not to say the fantom is bad, but for me I really really love the tritons interface. Kinda the same reason i use the sequencer on the mpc.

i dont think the triton rack is worth it............only the triton extreme or TR is worth the price. the studio is overpriced. If i could build my own synth it would be the triton interface/synthesis method combined with the motif acoustic guitars, eps, and piano sounds, the rolands synth sounds, and tritons strings/orchestral.

IMHO im mostly into string sounds so the combi mode, dual arps, and nice strings makes the triton perfect. If you are into eps and pianos i could see why youd like the motif...


one more thing. The advantage to a rompler vs sampler (although lots are the same thing) is that with a rompler you have quicker access to a sound. With a sampler you have to take into account loading time and setup. Its nice to turn on the swithc and dial up a preset, even if you proceed to tweak or design your own sounds, atleast you have a quick starting point to get your ideas down.

if you are looking at racks, dont even look at the triton rack. Its out of date. The XR rack is better than the motif IMO because it includes a sampler.......the motif es rack does not have sampler. The Motif es Keyboard does have a sampler. The triton rack is out of date because you need to add 7 expansion boards to compare to the triton extreme, plus it uses scsi and floppy, as opposed to usb and compact flash like the extreme. Also the OS on the triton rack is old too, there isnt resampling.

peace

cyrus wrote:The fantom xr is definately more up to date as far as sounds, but i think tweaking ability is more important than an updated sound set.

this is what i'm talking about! judging a sound module on it's sounds is stupid if it is infinitely tweakable, as Jahrome suggested.

cyrus wrote:one more thing. The advantage to a rompler vs sampler (although lots are the same thing) is that with a rompler you have quicker access to a sound. With a sampler you have to take into account loading time and setup. Its nice to turn on the swithc and dial up a preset, even if you proceed to tweak or design your own sounds, atleast you have a quick starting point to get your ideas down.

now i can see the point of these things and this leads me to understand why judging a sound module by it's sound set is NOT stupid if you are looking for quality real instrument sounds or generic synth sounds to start you off. However saying that a sound module is rubbish because it's sounds are not up to date, is IMHO stupid because as Jahrome pointed out it's the music that's made that counts!

cyrus wrote:if you are looking at racks, dont even look at the triton rack. Its out of date. The XR rack is better than the motif IMO because it includes a sampler.......the motif es rack does not have sampler. The Motif es Keyboard does have a sampler. The triton rack is out of date because you need to add 7 expansion boards to compare to the triton extreme, plus it uses scsi and floppy, as opposed to usb and compact flash like the extreme. Also the OS on the triton rack is old too, there isnt resampling.

peace

thanks for putting these features down succinctly, on these companies websites they don't compare their products feature-for-feature like you have done, thank you.

peace people[/quote]