MPC 2500 VS. MPC 3000

So you are only interested in facts not music....
1994 huh? That's quite a long time....Anyway, I appreciate the science/math lesson.

But in the real world....no one's ears are caring about micro or milli-seconds, or whatever. Next thing you will be saying is monitor through headphones vs studio monitors because the distance between your seated position and studio monitors has.....or stop using PC based audio workstations because of the 1.5 MS latency.....

So you are right. Everyone should all do our music in a standalone unit that does everything in a box so we are not affected by these milli-seconds. Akai is so stupid making MPCs with MIDI IN/Outputs when you can't scientificly simultaneously play MIDI notes on it....everyone should throw out their MIDI sound modules and analog synths.

Until somebody tells me your drum pattern is off a a fraction of a microsecond...I will keep using MIDI. I do understand now why you avoid MIDI.

earwold wrote:
triggering samples via midi just aint the same as triggering internally. if elma was here i have a feeling he may repeat the astute observation that there is much inspiration to be gained the aesthetics/ergonomics of equipment. the sp is a design classic, its also a tank, and simple as all hell, limitations often aid creativity etc blah brian eno wooden end cheeks...

So......
Track 1- Drum track with internal samples and a bassline using a MIDI sound module

vs.

Track 2- Drum track using MIDI sound module and a bassline using internal samples

So..do you think your ears can tell which track is which?

jahrome wrote:So you are only interested in facts not music....
1994 huh? That's quite a long time....Anyway, I appreciate the science/math lesson.

ah the infamous jahrome breakdown...ok lets play ball

i am interested in music, that's why i'm here.

i'll take facts over opinion any day.

the midi protocol hasn't changed since the 1980's, so what's your point - or was it a casual aside?

jahrome wrote:But in the real world....no one's ears are caring about micro or milli-seconds, or whatever.

In the 'real world', those who are concerned with groove, swing, timing and feel are absolutely caring about it.

jahrome wrote:Next thing you will be saying is monitor through headphones vs studio monitors because the distance between your seated position and studio monitors has.....or stop using PC based audio workstations because of the 1.5 MS latency.....

will I? how do you know this Jahrome?

jahrome wrote:So you are right. Everyone should all do our music in a standalone unit that does everything in a box so we are not affected by these milli-seconds. Akai is so stupid making MPCs with MIDI IN/Outputs when you can't scientificly simultaneously play MIDI notes on it....everyone should throw out their MIDI sound modules and analog synths.

are you seeing a different version of this forum to me?

jahrome wrote:Until somebody tells me your drum pattern is off a a fraction of a microsecond...I will keep using MIDI. I do understand now why you avoid MIDI.

it's not really so much what someone else tells me, it's more how it affects the way i work. I can tell the difference, I know what I'm looking for and how to get it.

jahrome wrote:So......
Track 1- Drum track with internal samples and a bassline using a MIDI sound module

vs.

Track 2- Drum track using MIDI sound module and a bassline using internal samples

So..do you think your ears can tell which track is which?

are you going to post a blind test Jahrome?

I was actually being sarcastic.....however music is suppose to be musical and not mechanical..which is why I responded to your 'facts'

But as far as the blind test..it pointless becauce I know what the results would be. You can not possibly tell if a track was recorded entirely within an MPC or externally using MIDI sound modules. If you are suggesting you can....sure, we can make this happen.

If you want to talk about facts...there are numerous things, besides MIDI, that can affect what you think you hear...as I already stated a few above.

I must add that what ever you use is entirely up to you. You can record, mix, and master the music you claim that you do entirely within an MPC. More power to you.

jahrome wrote:I was actually being sarcastic.....however music is suppose to be musical and not mechanical..which is why I responded to your 'facts'

sarcasm does not come across well on the internet my friend, something you would be very well advised to bear in mind in future.

kraftwerk made music that was 'mechanical' as did Prince, Dr Dre, and anyone else who used machines in their music.

not my facts, as regards the MIDI protocol - the facts

jahrome wrote:But as far as the blind test..it pointless becauce I know what the results would be. You can not possibly tell if a track was recorded entirely within an MPC or externally using MIDI sound modules. If you are suggesting you can....sure, we can make this happen.

What I am suggesting is that you would like me to say I can tell the difference - giving you the opportunity to post up files and then provide 'results' skewed in your favour. As if I would fall for that!

jahrome wrote:If you want to talk about facts...there are numerous things, besides MIDI, that can affect what you think you hear...as I already stated a few above.

yes i saw that

jahrome wrote:I must add that what ever you use is entirely up to you. You can record, mix, and master the music you claim that you do entirely within an MPC. More power to you.

thanks very much for granting me permission to do what I wish.

earwolf wrote:
sarcasm does not come across well on the internet my friend, something you would be very well advised to bear in mind in future.

kraftwerk made music that was 'mechanical' as did Prince, Dr Dre, and anyone else who used machines in their music.

not my facts, as regards the MIDI protocol - the facts

Thanks I really appreciate your advice and opinions (being sarcastic). Do I really need to list the number of great artists/bands whose music is not 'mechanical'? As far as Prince...you need to go back and listen to some classic Prince. As far as Dr. Dre..he uses sampled drums. MIDI'd keyboards, and live bass guitars....and he is doing just fine with his keyboards being off microseconds from his drums

earwolf wrote:
What I am suggesting is that you would like me to say I can tell the difference - giving you the opportunity to post up files and then provide 'results' skewed in your favour. As if I would fall for that!

You suggested that you could tell the difference. I already know that you can't. I could easily put up several identical 4 bar loops created using MIDI instruments and MPC sample based tracks for you to attempt to 'guess' which was done with which. You can accept the challenge or not. Since you stated that 'triggering samples via midi just aint the same as triggering internally'..which may be technically correct...I challenge you to prove this using simple musical compositions..not using math/science/techno jargon.

earwolf wrote:
thanks very much for granting me permission to do what I wish.

You are most welcome.

Re-reading the facts you posted earlier...'What is the delay between two "simultaneous" MIDI notes on a single cable? For those who just want the facts, the answer is 960 microseconds for ordinary Note On events or 640 microseconds for Running Status Note On events. ' Since the MPC 2500 has 4 MIDI Outs (using 4 MIDI cables) versus a single cable..this can help solve the problems you are having with microseconds (which in plain talk is a millionth of a second). I bet you must really hate using a PC/Mac to track/record music. Even the best sound cards have about 1.5 millisecond latency.....in plain talk..a millisecond is one thousandth of a second.....

jahrome wrote:Thanks I really appreciate your advice and opinions (being sarcastic). Do I really need to list the number of great artists/bands whose music is not 'mechanical'? As far as Prince...you need to go back and listen to some classic Prince. As far as Dr. Dre..he uses sampled drums. MIDI'd keyboards, and live bass guitars....and he is doing just fine with his keyboards being off microseconds from his drums

I know you like to school cats on the regular, but none of this is telling me anything. You seem to have the idea that I'm talking about using MIDI for anything being sacrosanct. Nah...a slow attack string pad aint gonna suffer, but a kick and snare surely will. I know Dre likes to stack 3k's for tight drums, but then everyone knows that...

jahrome wrote:You suggested that you could tell the difference. I already know that you can't. I could easily put up several identical 4 bar loops created using MIDI instruments and MPC sample based tracks for you to attempt to 'guess' which was done with which. You can accept the challenge or not.

I don't accept, as I have no way of knowing this will be conducted fairly, you are way too proud to lose face on here, even though this seems to happen daily...

jahrome wrote:Since you stated that 'triggering samples via midi just aint the same as triggering internally'..which may be technically correct...I challenge you to prove this using simple musical compositions..not using math/science/techno jargon.

Technically correct will do for me thanks. 'Jargon' is sometimes necessary when addressing technical matters.

jahrome wrote:Re-reading the facts you posted earlier...'What is the delay between two "simultaneous" MIDI notes on a single cable? For those who just want the facts, the answer is 960 microseconds for ordinary Note On events or 640 microseconds for Running Status Note On events. ' Since the MPC 2500 has 4 MIDI Outs (using 4 MIDI cables) versus a single cable..this can help solve the problems you are having with microseconds (which in plain talk is a millionth of a second). I bet you must really hate using a PC/Mac to track/record music. Even the best sound cards have about 1.5 millisecond latency.....in plain talk..a millisecond is one thousandth of a second.....

http://www.digidesign.com/digizine/arch ... roundwork/

Read that, then go listen to your latest track...don't those drums sound off? Night night

earwolf wrote:I don't accept, as I have no way of knowing this will be conducted fairly, you are way too proud to lose face on here, even though this seems to happen daily...

earwolf wrote:
I know you like to school cats on the regular, but none of this is telling me anything. You seem to have the idea that I'm talking about using MIDI for anything being sacrosanct. Nah...a slow attack string pad aint gonna suffer, but a kick and snare surely will. I know Dre likes to stack 3k's for tight drums, but then everyone knows that...

So how do you know what Dre does in the studio? You most likely read what everyone else here read. He doesn't stack 3Ks for tight drums. In fact, what does stacking 3Ks have to do with any of this? The articles floating around state that he uses multiple MPC 3000s so he won't have to keep loading his drum kits. In other words...he uses an MPC for each drum kit. Dre creates his drum by processing them first (EQ, compression, etc) then by sampling them into the 3K. But this has nothing to do with timing.

Now..I see you back tracking a little. First you say triggering samples from sound modules is different...now you say that you meant drums and not instruments such as strings If you would have stated that 'fact/fiction' earlier..I may not have even responded. I use my MPC to sample drums and phrase loops. Then I use MIDI to control my synths. I guess that method of producing is ok with you..no?

Now to really get down and dirty to plainly stated that you can hear a sound that is a millionth of a second off Let me say it again....you can hear a sound that is a millionth of a second off. I guess you really are an earwolf and can hear dog whistles. Let me give it up to you. You have amazing hearing.......(you made this claim before you included the article on phasing..which is still not the point here)

So I do understand why you turned down my offer. Yes, I would have made it work in my favor. How? I would have given you 4 identical tracks and watch you clown yourself by saying one is different from the other Because the fact of the matter..YOU were talking about how MIDI instruments are off.

earwolf wrote:
I don't accept, as I have no way of knowing this will be conducted fairly, you are way too proud to lose face on here, even though this seems to happen daily...

I think your technique is called 'begging the question' or something like that. Its where you assert something as a fact and then have people prove you wrong. SO you are right until proven wrong I only suggested that if I give you identical tracks..some with MPC drums and some with MIDI drums..you can't tell which is which. Nothing more than that. You took the conversation into a different direction....this has nothing to do with winning or losing. Prove your assertion with a real-world test...or not.

earwolf wrote:
Technically correct will do for me thanks. 'Jargon' is sometimes necessary when addressing technical matters.

I knew it would...re-read above....

earwolf wrote:

http://www.digidesign.com/digizine/arch ... roundwork/

Read that, then go listen to your latest track...don't those drums sound off? Night night

No...my drums don't sound 'off'..what ever that means? I hate to repeat myself (well..actually, I like it) but this has nothing to do what we were talking about initially.

So where are we now? We go from sequencing sound modules are different..to identical samples phasing each other out if the timing isn't perfect.....it makes me think if you even use your MPC. If you program identical samples in an MPC sequence..you will most def hear these identical samples phase each other out from time to time. An MPC is not perfect in this regard...even with the sounds stored internally. And here is a hint...you can get some nice sounding drums by stacking drum/percussion sounds that that are not identical...

I look forward to hearing from you again............

jesus christ you are stupid

What does your lord and savior have to do with this?

You are the one that posted some BS and then attempt to flip it around at the end.......stupidity is in your responses..

So since you made it clear with your latest responses...that this is a bout winning and losing..........

I just want to know where I made a statement here that is inaccurate so I can learn from it..........

i'll give it you in small chunks:

1. by stacks i meant he owns five 3ks that he relies on for drums, not that he stacks samples

2. a millisecond is a thousandth of a second, not a millionth

3. your 'technique' is called bait-and-switch, although others have referred to it by other names on here

earwolf wrote:
i'll give it you in small chunks:

1. by stacks i meant he owns five 3ks that he relies on for drums, not that he stacks samples

2. a millisecond is a thousandth of a second, not a millionth

3. your 'technique' is called bait-and-switch, although others have referred to it by other names on here

1. I read what Dre does. What you wrote just wasn't the 'same thing'. But what does this have to do with anything we are talking about?

2. Ok buddy...the second time was a typo..you know I got it right the first time which I reposted at the bottom since you missed it the first time....

3. I never claimed that the correct name of YOUR 'technique' is a fact. I have heard it called several things but I couldn't find the one that I am most familar with. However, here is another:
The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or argument by lack of imagination, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false.

This can also be flipped around to say that a premise is false only because it has not been proven true.

So, unless you are willing to put up or shut up....you are still arguing from ignorance

Jahrome posted earlier:
Re-reading the facts you posted earlier...'What is the delay between two "simultaneous" MIDI notes on a single cable? For those who just want the facts, the answer is 960 microseconds for ordinary Note On events or 640 microseconds for Running Status Note On events. ' Since the MPC 2500 has 4 MIDI Outs (using 4 MIDI cables) versus a single cable..this can help solve the problems you are having with microseconds (which in plain talk is a millionth of a second). I bet you must really hate using a PC/Mac to track/record music. Even the best sound cards have about 1.5 millisecond latency.....in plain talk..a millisecond is one thousandth of a second.....

So getting back to the basics...you claimed/implied earlier that you can hear something that is a millionth of a second off. Damn...I would be impressed if you can recognize/hear something that is a thousandth of a second off. When you break it down even further...I am surprised that you even use an MPC since Akai's flagship model has a sequncer that boasts only 960 PPQs...(now I am going in another direction...or am I?)

You got next....

nah its yours homie, i just wanted an argument. i might cop a 2500 in future i'll hit you up for tips. have a good day

Jahrome, why do you use the MPC to loop samples? What advantages does it have as a sampler as opposed to something like Battery or Kontakt through Nuendo?

Do you own a soft sampler? Have you tried one? Perhaps, you don't like them? No?

Can someone tell me about the SOUND of the 2500

I know the features, i can read them everywhere, but i cant see something about the sound of the machine: one of the things why people still got there 60 and 3000....

is the sound like the 4000 or more like the 2000: what kind of sound engine does it got?