Alot of table talk, let's talk "needles" for a sec?

Ok so theres always lots of talk about turntables and which to get, I think from numerous threads its safe to say the majority favs 1200's overall...so we wont go there....

but what about needles...I have searched the forums and the little I came up with really didnt help much...I asked a few people and most seem to say that shure makes a great overall needle the m447...

now i understand you would need to know if its for strictly sampling or for scratching aswell...well honestly 95% would be mainly sampling but I would like to dabble with scratching and see what comes of it...so a good in between needle would be nice, but if anything my main concern would be a high quality needle for sampling...

any and all input would be appreciated...at this point im leaning towards the shure, but if there's something better for a bit more or less it would be nice to know....

right now i'm using shure whitelabels. i love them.

i use them, w/my m5g's and pmc55 at all our desert parties. sounds amazing. very deep bass, clear and defined mids and highs. everything sounds balanced too. not too much bass, or are the highs shrilly, and ear-piercing.

the stanton trackmasters, or groovemasters we used to use (i don't remember which one it was exactly) didn't have the same definition, nor was the bass as deep.

i'm not a scratcher, nor a hip hop dj... so i can't comment on how well they hold the groove. but i understand that they are supposed to be pretty good for scratching. not quite like the m44-7, but more like the m44g. they don't require a lot of weight, so they are very easy on your records.

m44-7 are great for scratching. It's really hard to get them out of the groove, they stick to the record. They got lots of bass, maybe too much
whitelabels are great for general listening, their freequency response is almost flat, and they will not wear out your record.
Stanton needles kill records really fast.
Ortofon needles are a little bit "too clear" for me, I think they raise the top a bit. They handle record pretty good too, but nothing beats 44-7.
Numark CC needles sound and handle as good as ortofons, but they wear out really fast.

I'd like to know as well. I'm kinda in the same boat as Harry Hustle. I'm looking mostly for a nice high fidelity needle that will really bring out the small nuances of the sounds of the record for sampling purposes. But I'd also like to try my hand in a lil turntablism.

I read somewhere that Shure M97XE is a good high fidelity needle for sampling and listening purposes but I dunno how they hold up for turntablism and DJ'ing. Anyone have any input on that one?

I've also heard about M44-7s having a bit too much bass but they keep coming up in every thread about styli and cartridges.

thanks a bill for the detailed feedback fellas!!

I think it's safe to say and the majority speaks that "Shure" most likely makes the best needle...well ok you should never say "best" but they seem to be the workhorse or go-to-guy when it comes to needles....

I was really VERY close to sayin F'it and ordering the shure M44-7 , but now that I did more research and hearing from you guys about these whitelabels it throws a cork in the road...and the fact that I keep hearing about the "to much bass" I make strictly hip hop where as normally alot of bass would actually be a PLUS to me...I don't really want my samples to be recorded with "to much" that just makes my job harder in the mix...

So I guess it's a toss-up M44-7 or whitelabel??

Keeping in mind that I'd be doing sampling/listening 95% of the time...and I would only be trying a little scratch here and there but rarely ever....

Which would you say would be the better choice for my situation...??

I hate to be so paranoid in a sense but with the record in a sense being like the backbone of the operation and my leading source for sampling I want to make sure I make the right decision....

thanks again to every one that helped...much appreciated!!

HARRY HUSTLE wrote:So I guess it's a toss-up M44-7 or whitelabel??

Keeping in mind that I'd be doing sampling/listening 95% of the time...and I would only be trying a little scratch here and there but rarely ever....

The m44-7s are great for turntablism, but it's not that you can't skratch with other needles. I've had the 44-7s for years now but I'm gonna buy something else. Don't know what yet but I wanna get a better needle for sampling.

Tohtruck wrote:I read somewhere that Shure M97XE is a good high fidelity needle for sampling and listening purposes but I dunno how they hold up for turntablism and DJ'ing. Anyone have any input on that one?

I have used M447 needles three years for sampling, and maybe more than six years for scratching/DJing. They are great DJ scratching needles, but its not the best sounding ones. I dont like the high frequencies on it. It has much high freqs, but its not detailed and "right" high freqs. I havent tried M44G yet, I think they shall sound a bit better, and you can scratch with them.

I have now invested in the Shure M97XE and it sounds great! I'ts sad that i cant drag the record with the M97XE back over and over again to get the best recording level, I have to lift the needle and set it down again all the time (if I care about the record and dont want to purchase new needles all the time).

Since the needle on the M97XE is elliptical, not spherical, it will cause great damage to the record if you scratch with it.

AND NEVER USE ELLIPTICAL NEEDLES ON A TURNTABLE WITH A STRAIGHT TONEARM!

"Because of the excessive tracking error of 17 degrees, you must never use elliptical styli in a Scratch DJ straight arm. The fine edges of the elliptical profile depend on near perfect tangental alignment. With an error of 17 degrees, these fine edges become sharp cutting tools and will shave the surface of the vinyl groove. Stick with conical or spherical shaped styli when using a straight Scratch DJ tonearm."

READ THIS ARTICLE on Straight VS S-Shaped tonearms:
http://www.kabusa.com/str8_doc.htm

HARRY HUSTLE wrote:
Keeping in mind that I'd be doing sampling/listening 95% of the time...and I would only be trying a little scratch here and there but rarely ever....

Which would you say would be the better choice for my situation...??

I hate to be so paranoid in a sense but with the record in a sense being like the backbone of the operation and my leading source for sampling I want to make sure I make the right decision....

thanks again to every one that helped...much appreciated!!

in your case, i would recommend the whitelabel. you will be able to pull better sounding samples with it.

i've been eyeing the m97xe like deck daddy mentioned. this is shure entry level hi-fi needle. i've been thinking about this one for vinyl ripping. but this is definately not a scrath needle. back cueing will wreck the needle, and record.

elliptical needles will yeild even more detail because they dig deeper into the groove of the record, and reproduce what you are missing w/sphereical stylus. you get more definition, especially in the hi-freq, over all, and sharper detail.

but the whitelabel is good place to start. at least it's a lot easier to set up.

deck daddy wrote:AND NEVER USE ELLIPTICAL NEEDLES ON A TURNTABLE WITH A STRAIGHT TONEARM!

"Because of the excessive tracking error of 17 degrees, you must never use elliptical styli in a Scratch DJ straight arm. The fine edges of the elliptical profile depend on near perfect tangental alignment. With an error of 17 degrees, these fine edges become sharp cutting tools and will shave the surface of the vinyl groove. Stick with conical or spherical shaped styli when using a straight Scratch DJ tonearm."

READ THIS ARTICLE on Straight VS S-Shaped tonearms:
http://www.kabusa.com/str8_doc.htm

Thanks for the heads up. My TT has a straight tonearm. Would the Whitelabel be a better choice in my case?

I'd rather have a good all purpose needle for listening and for the ocassional cut. But I don't want something that will chew through my wax or crack on backspins.

tohtruck, the whitelable uses a spherical stylus. it is also adjustable. it comes w/a screwdriver that will allow you to adjust the overhang of the cartridge to match the type of tonearm you have.

so yes, the whitelabel would be your best bet, if you want a good all arounder.

Why oh why has nobody mentioned shure sc35c's ?

I would have def thought they'd be in there for choice when speaking of mainly sampling with a lil dabling in skratching..

those 35's require too much weight for mad scratchers...they'll burn your stuff up...but they're cheaper, and they still do work pretty well...

get the 44G. uses the same cartridge as the 447s, so if you want to try out the 44-7 you can just buy a stylus and pop it in there... I switched to the G's a few years ago and can only tell the difference in the more balanced eq... the 44-7's got a mega hi and low. And they have a higher output. I cut all the time on G's, like a ham-handed moron, and they stay put just as well as the 44-7s, i swear. Just set them up right (less weight than you'd think).

anyways, get 447s or 44Gs, can't really go wrong with either of them...

as for this "sound quality" stuff: are you running all this through a scratch mixer? which one? That's going to be your weakest link, if your mixer is anything like mine (ancient 06)... and it's fine... especially when you're EQ'ing like a madman and talking about that 12 bit crunch on a SP, like everyone does around here. Needles not skipping is more important to me...

stay away from concorde-style cartridges though, those are beat lol...

bobbybigbeats wrote:those 35's require too much weight for mad scratchers...they'll burn your stuff up...but they're cheaper, and they still do work pretty well...

get the 44G. uses the same cartridge as the 447s, so if you want to try out the 44-7 you can just buy a stylus and pop it in there... I switched to the G's a few years ago and can only tell the difference in the more balanced eq... the 44-7's got a mega hi and low. And they have a higher output. I cut all the time on G's, like a ham-handed moron, and they stay put just as well as the 44-7s, i swear. Just set them up right (less weight than you'd think).

anyways, get 447s or 44Gs, can't really go wrong with either of them...

as for this "sound quality" stuff: are you running all this through a scratch mixer? which one? That's going to be your weakest link, if your mixer is anything like mine (ancient 06)... and it's fine... especially when you're EQ'ing like a madman and talking about that 12 bit crunch on a SP, like everyone does around here. Needles not skipping is more important to me...

stay away from concorde-style cartridges though, those are beat lol...

They dont burn records or need mad weight.. not any weight at all actually, i rocked them for years.

They also got real good sound quality, not as loud output as the m447's i dont think but much better sound quality..

I know alot of radio stations were running them not sure if they still are.. they were used on bbc radio alot as well.

And i found the sc35c's real real good for non skipping.. at one point i had m447 on one and sc35c on other turntable.. and i never had to worry about either of them skipping

Concordes are strictly for sampling.
Concorde Gold over here @ just over 1.5
But the other blue tip/yellow tip concordes sound exactly the same.
Also, Co-Sign on M44-G's, they stick fine @ just under 2.0
And they really do sound noticeably better than M44-7's

If you got 2 decks throw concorde on one and M44-G on the other.

^^ nah actually only 1 deck I just sold my stanton table/mixer and Im going to sell my older american pro cd deck and grab up that hybrid table...it's been calling me and I just want a nice needle for it...

From all the feedback I was leaning towards the 447's but as it seems one of the key parts is how well it holds the record and I'm a bit more concerned with sound quality for sampling so I am pretty sure I'm going to purchase a M44 seems like it was between that and the whitelabel but I think the m44 has the edge, so Ill grab one up I guess I cant go to wrong with any of them, but always like to get what accomodates my set up best...

thanks for all the input and help....