By TheMPCRipper
Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:04 pm
Can someone break this down to me? For a while I was just doing what sounds right, but I would like to understand this theory a little more.
By descartes
Sat May 01, 2004 1:03 am
Heres another link that might help: http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/charts/keychart.mv
but I say forget about theory and use your ears.
but I say forget about theory and use your ears.
By mwalker
Sat May 01, 2004 2:31 pm
this is not a flame but forget theory and go by ear is a lot of BULL SH*T. the comparison is a streetball player and nba player, there are a few (very few) streetball players in the nba. the reason why there are not more streetball players in the nba is because they do not know the game. yes, in the park they can dunk and shoot but do not know the game of BASKETBALL enough to play in the nba. yes, there are some musician who do not know theory but most muscian know theory. this thing with go with your ear is crazy. why learn how to setup a midi studio if you only want to make beats? just get someone to setup it up for you, right. the combination of ear and theory is the way to go. just going with your ear is a lot of trail and error. with theory an idividual can take a lot of guess work out of the music making process.
what you put into your music is what you are going to get out. the more you learn about music the better your music is going to be.
it seems like there are allot of individual (not all) that do not have a clue about this music making process. we may have different workflow but we all want our music to be in time and in key.
do not short change yourself. making music is all about growing musically.
the circle of fifths are a good start. this how your ear and theory works, say you are writing a toon and you hear the next note in your progression, instead of hitting everykey in that octave you could say to yourself is that next note a higher or lower pitch than that fifth note of the key that you are in. that alone cuts your trail and error down to just play 6 notes and compared 12. if you understand.
there is no instant way to make music. it is a chore each and everyday. if you are not will to learn/grow musically your music will alway sound the same.
anyone can make a beat but not everyone can make music. if you only want to make beats there is no need for theory but if you want to make music learn as mush as possible. again there are no short cuts.
to get a good start i would recommend to take 10 theory/piano lession. just to get your feet wet. do not buy that next piece of equiment and invest in your knowledge of music.
this is not a flame but the truth. there are no repeat no short cut. what you put into it is what is coming out of it.
this is the one thing i hate about the mpc is that it is so easy to use. anyone could buy one and do not have a clue and make beats. then when i talk about reason, there are individuals that say "reason sucks". do you know why people say it sucks? because an individual must have some knowledge of the music making process and with out it you can not use it.
it is that simple.
set aside time for making your beats, reading theory material, reading reviews of equiment (hardware/software). learn the music field. all compontents. you will be better off in the long run. peace.
what you put into your music is what you are going to get out. the more you learn about music the better your music is going to be.
it seems like there are allot of individual (not all) that do not have a clue about this music making process. we may have different workflow but we all want our music to be in time and in key.
do not short change yourself. making music is all about growing musically.
the circle of fifths are a good start. this how your ear and theory works, say you are writing a toon and you hear the next note in your progression, instead of hitting everykey in that octave you could say to yourself is that next note a higher or lower pitch than that fifth note of the key that you are in. that alone cuts your trail and error down to just play 6 notes and compared 12. if you understand.
there is no instant way to make music. it is a chore each and everyday. if you are not will to learn/grow musically your music will alway sound the same.
anyone can make a beat but not everyone can make music. if you only want to make beats there is no need for theory but if you want to make music learn as mush as possible. again there are no short cuts.
to get a good start i would recommend to take 10 theory/piano lession. just to get your feet wet. do not buy that next piece of equiment and invest in your knowledge of music.
this is not a flame but the truth. there are no repeat no short cut. what you put into it is what is coming out of it.
this is the one thing i hate about the mpc is that it is so easy to use. anyone could buy one and do not have a clue and make beats. then when i talk about reason, there are individuals that say "reason sucks". do you know why people say it sucks? because an individual must have some knowledge of the music making process and with out it you can not use it.
it is that simple.
set aside time for making your beats, reading theory material, reading reviews of equiment (hardware/software). learn the music field. all compontents. you will be better off in the long run. peace.
By qenetic|storm
Sat May 01, 2004 2:44 pm
^....iam trying to teach myself...and its been hard.... my main stumbling block is fingering...which fingers are to supposed to hit which keys...
.
i keep reading... it depends on the music in front of you.... but is there a basic beginner format that i can use.... in which i can adjust later on...
.
.
.
i keep reading... it depends on the music in front of you.... but is there a basic beginner format that i can use.... in which i can adjust later on...
.
.
[url]http://www.QeneticStorm.com[/url]
By mwalker
Sat May 01, 2004 3:08 pm
i would take 10 lessons to get the basic (fingering, how to form a scale, how to form a chord) and then teach yourself.
By Sweet Time
Sun May 02, 2004 3:09 pm
I think, that you need to know quite a bit about theory to use the MPC if you want to get nitty gritty about sequencing. I think that those who sample and use the time stretch and know their tools, and have built another branch of music theory. What's cool about the MPC is that it has it's own language, it's own music theory.
There are many styles of music theory. The Japanese had to change their music system each time they got a new emporer. So they have hundreds of music theories that they've used over the centuries.
Just an example that there are several ways to look at music theory.
There are many styles of music theory. The Japanese had to change their music system each time they got a new emporer. So they have hundreds of music theories that they've used over the centuries.
Just an example that there are several ways to look at music theory.
"Only 12 notes that a man can play" -Beastie Boys
By descartes
Sun May 02, 2004 7:57 pm
This is a two part post.
In part one I will discuss, on a basic level, the components of "musical theory" so as to set the stage for discussion and define my key terms.
In part two, I will then respond to certain comments, which I in principle agree with, but believe the metaphors and strong words used to express them (comments to the effect that the idea that one doesn't need to study musical theory and can go with thier "ears" alone denotes laziness on the part of the composer) are misleading and, for the most part, inconsistent.
This is not a "flame" and so I hope responses to this post will be in the interest of promoting a dialouge about music, music theory, and hip-hop's place in music as a whole.
My main thesis is that "hip-hop" represents a continuation of an ever-evolving counterpart to the "formal" tradition, and as such the argument that an understanding of the theoretical presuppositions of the formal tradition are necessary for the creation of hip-hop music is false.
What is a theory?
I think that there are two main points one can make about theories in general:
1) theories are constructed to account for phenomena (things that happen)and
2) theories are falliable: what is accepted as the truth for over 1,000 years can be replaced by another theory, which can then in turn be replaced by another. The moral: just because there is an accepted thoery, doesn't mean that its is necessarily the "truth."
Music theory is constructed to serve as a guidline or an aid for the way sounds interact when arranged and that it is just that, a guide, not the truth of how music can be created or the only way it should be created.
Western Musical Theory
Lets take it from the top: what is music? This seems to be another one of those simple questions that is actually incredibly complex when you start to think about it. A simple definition that lots of people agree with is that music is "the art of arranging pleasing sounds." However this cant be right as discords have been used for a long time, and they are not what anyone would call pleasing. So lets just say that "music is the art of arranging sounds."
One of the most important elements of western music is harmony, the interaction of tones. So when we talk about "musical theory" we are talking, generally, about the elaborate theory and technique of harmony that has evolved in the western world.
This is, of course, not the only way of doing things. Eastern music, for example, such as the Indian raga or tala has developed without harmoney and tends to rely more on complex melodic or rhythmic structures. Chinese musical theory depends on a single note, the haung chung, from which arises a seriesof 12 notes (called lue), each of which is the basis of a penatonic scale.
So, right from the outset, we can see that, not only is western musical theory not the only way of doing things, if we go by the population size of India and China, we can see that its not even the most generally accepted way of doing thingsin the world (though of course the indoctrination of western culture across the world in the form of "pop music" is trying to change this).
So where did western music theory come from? Well, like all theories, it was constructed. The major formalization of western music theory as we now know it is embodied in the method of stave notation. This system of notation was developed between the 10th and 18th centuries and originated with the Benedictine Monk Guido D'Arrezo. Untill the reniassance, this method was used primarily for church music, with secular music taking a secondary place. Music that fell outside this church tradition was called "pagan" or "folk" music. This music existed in all cultures and was transmited orally, not through writing.
Stave notation in form consists of five horizontal lines (staves) as the framework on which 8 notes are written in ascending order of pitch: A, B, C, D, E, F, and G and then to A again an octive higher. The key (a prescribed system of tones forming a major or minor scale) of the music is indicated by sharps and and flats on the stave next to the clef sign at the begining of the score.The beat of the music is shown by dividing by dividing the staves by vertical lines and marking at the outset how many beats there are to each bar.
Music Theory Vs. Performance
From here on, when I refer to music thoery, I am refering to the study of the above form of notation, and the assorted concepts that accompany it. However, I would like to point out that this theory is seperate from performance. For example, one can learn to play the guitar using a form of notation (called tablature) that only has hand positions for each chord. So I cam play the guitar without understanding any musical theory other than some performance issue on how to form chords. The art of performace is, most generally, the art of figuring out how to consistently control your chosen instrument such that the sounds made on it are repeatable. This is true regardless of what musical theory you subscribe to.
In fact, performance historically has been around far longer than music theory. People spent thousands of years simply performing thier instruments so they "sounded good" without having any underlying theory of tonality. This is the hallmark of what I refered to earlier as "folk" music. This is not to say that, lacking theory, these musicians were not skilled in what they did. The methods were just different, Playing techniques were not passsed down through writting but orally and through person to person instruction. You could view this forum as continuation of this "nonformal tradition" or person to person instruction.
Is Hip-Hop a form of folk music?
Folk music, as I stated earlier, has grown up as a seperate tradition from formal music (though the two can influence and/or be influenced by each other) in almost all cultures, and has been transmitted orally from generation to generation. The prime form of folk music that we live with today is that of the black spiritual that originated in the American South in the 16th and 17th centuries. From these folk spirituals came Jazz, which with its high emphasis on improvisation an syncopation, seems in some ways more akin to the indian raga then to the religious and classical traditions for which notation was created. Perhaps because of this, very few of the innovators in this art form had any formal training in music theory. The emergence of jazz, and its children the blues, soul and rock and roll, is prime example of an oral folk tradition. The innovators of this field, probably couldnt tell you what the beat or key of thier songs were, because they had never learned to think in this theoretical language. Instead, they used their ears.
Hip-hop, is, I believe, the next step in this continuing tradition. Like jazz, the innvoators (such as Marley Marl, Dj Premier and Pete Rock) in hip-hop created their own musical language, one that is different than the formal language of musical theory.
Conclusion
Thanks for reading this far. To sum up: musical theory can be an important tool for some producers, but as I have shown, hip-hop production is not dependent on this formalized discipline and to imply that hip-hop producers that do not subscribe to formalized music theory are somehow "lazy" is disengenious at best.
This is not to argue that one should not use music theory, or study it if one wants to, but in the end, traditionally hip-hops evolution has been outside of this formalized discipline and lack of knoweldge on aspects of musical theory doesn't make a hip-hop producer lazy or stupid.
In part one I will discuss, on a basic level, the components of "musical theory" so as to set the stage for discussion and define my key terms.
In part two, I will then respond to certain comments, which I in principle agree with, but believe the metaphors and strong words used to express them (comments to the effect that the idea that one doesn't need to study musical theory and can go with thier "ears" alone denotes laziness on the part of the composer) are misleading and, for the most part, inconsistent.
This is not a "flame" and so I hope responses to this post will be in the interest of promoting a dialouge about music, music theory, and hip-hop's place in music as a whole.
My main thesis is that "hip-hop" represents a continuation of an ever-evolving counterpart to the "formal" tradition, and as such the argument that an understanding of the theoretical presuppositions of the formal tradition are necessary for the creation of hip-hop music is false.
What is a theory?
I think that there are two main points one can make about theories in general:
1) theories are constructed to account for phenomena (things that happen)and
2) theories are falliable: what is accepted as the truth for over 1,000 years can be replaced by another theory, which can then in turn be replaced by another. The moral: just because there is an accepted thoery, doesn't mean that its is necessarily the "truth."
Music theory is constructed to serve as a guidline or an aid for the way sounds interact when arranged and that it is just that, a guide, not the truth of how music can be created or the only way it should be created.
Western Musical Theory
Lets take it from the top: what is music? This seems to be another one of those simple questions that is actually incredibly complex when you start to think about it. A simple definition that lots of people agree with is that music is "the art of arranging pleasing sounds." However this cant be right as discords have been used for a long time, and they are not what anyone would call pleasing. So lets just say that "music is the art of arranging sounds."
One of the most important elements of western music is harmony, the interaction of tones. So when we talk about "musical theory" we are talking, generally, about the elaborate theory and technique of harmony that has evolved in the western world.
This is, of course, not the only way of doing things. Eastern music, for example, such as the Indian raga or tala has developed without harmoney and tends to rely more on complex melodic or rhythmic structures. Chinese musical theory depends on a single note, the haung chung, from which arises a seriesof 12 notes (called lue), each of which is the basis of a penatonic scale.
So, right from the outset, we can see that, not only is western musical theory not the only way of doing things, if we go by the population size of India and China, we can see that its not even the most generally accepted way of doing thingsin the world (though of course the indoctrination of western culture across the world in the form of "pop music" is trying to change this).
So where did western music theory come from? Well, like all theories, it was constructed. The major formalization of western music theory as we now know it is embodied in the method of stave notation. This system of notation was developed between the 10th and 18th centuries and originated with the Benedictine Monk Guido D'Arrezo. Untill the reniassance, this method was used primarily for church music, with secular music taking a secondary place. Music that fell outside this church tradition was called "pagan" or "folk" music. This music existed in all cultures and was transmited orally, not through writing.
Stave notation in form consists of five horizontal lines (staves) as the framework on which 8 notes are written in ascending order of pitch: A, B, C, D, E, F, and G and then to A again an octive higher. The key (a prescribed system of tones forming a major or minor scale) of the music is indicated by sharps and and flats on the stave next to the clef sign at the begining of the score.The beat of the music is shown by dividing by dividing the staves by vertical lines and marking at the outset how many beats there are to each bar.
Music Theory Vs. Performance
From here on, when I refer to music thoery, I am refering to the study of the above form of notation, and the assorted concepts that accompany it. However, I would like to point out that this theory is seperate from performance. For example, one can learn to play the guitar using a form of notation (called tablature) that only has hand positions for each chord. So I cam play the guitar without understanding any musical theory other than some performance issue on how to form chords. The art of performace is, most generally, the art of figuring out how to consistently control your chosen instrument such that the sounds made on it are repeatable. This is true regardless of what musical theory you subscribe to.
In fact, performance historically has been around far longer than music theory. People spent thousands of years simply performing thier instruments so they "sounded good" without having any underlying theory of tonality. This is the hallmark of what I refered to earlier as "folk" music. This is not to say that, lacking theory, these musicians were not skilled in what they did. The methods were just different, Playing techniques were not passsed down through writting but orally and through person to person instruction. You could view this forum as continuation of this "nonformal tradition" or person to person instruction.
Is Hip-Hop a form of folk music?
Folk music, as I stated earlier, has grown up as a seperate tradition from formal music (though the two can influence and/or be influenced by each other) in almost all cultures, and has been transmitted orally from generation to generation. The prime form of folk music that we live with today is that of the black spiritual that originated in the American South in the 16th and 17th centuries. From these folk spirituals came Jazz, which with its high emphasis on improvisation an syncopation, seems in some ways more akin to the indian raga then to the religious and classical traditions for which notation was created. Perhaps because of this, very few of the innovators in this art form had any formal training in music theory. The emergence of jazz, and its children the blues, soul and rock and roll, is prime example of an oral folk tradition. The innovators of this field, probably couldnt tell you what the beat or key of thier songs were, because they had never learned to think in this theoretical language. Instead, they used their ears.
Hip-hop, is, I believe, the next step in this continuing tradition. Like jazz, the innvoators (such as Marley Marl, Dj Premier and Pete Rock) in hip-hop created their own musical language, one that is different than the formal language of musical theory.
Conclusion
Thanks for reading this far. To sum up: musical theory can be an important tool for some producers, but as I have shown, hip-hop production is not dependent on this formalized discipline and to imply that hip-hop producers that do not subscribe to formalized music theory are somehow "lazy" is disengenious at best.
This is not to argue that one should not use music theory, or study it if one wants to, but in the end, traditionally hip-hops evolution has been outside of this formalized discipline and lack of knoweldge on aspects of musical theory doesn't make a hip-hop producer lazy or stupid.
By mwalker
Mon May 03, 2004 2:24 pm
descartes, you are 100% correct and i am really impressed with your post.
there is not much theory in making a drum beat and sampling. for a drum beat, know where the one is, snare on 2 and 4, bass drum on any beat and hihat on any beat (fiddle with it until it sounds good). sampling, get a cd, sound forge (rip the section of the song), recycle (to chop up the beat), acid (to strectch the sample if needed) and load the samples. no theory needed at all. period. I AM A HIPHOP PRODUCER.
in your post you talked about jazz and theory, duke ellingtioin, charlie parker and MOST (not all) of the greats knew/know theory. stevie wonder, earth, wind and fire, prince, jimmy jam/terry lewis and qunicy jones (has produce hiphop) know theory.
out of all the hiphop producer you know who can make better beats than prince or jimmy jam/terry lewis (both know theory)?
my question, why does berklee school of music, rochester school of music, miami un. etc (the best music schools) have a hiphop programs? in order to get into these school you must have some knowledge of theory.
if you just want to make a drum beat and sample someone else material you do not need theory, the work is done for you all ready. if you want to make orginal music theory is the way to go. that is why there are berklees and miami un.
the qunicy jones thing (he went to berklee) he can make jazz, classical, soul, r & b and HIPHOP. so my point is DO NOT SHORT CHANGE YOURSELF.
PUT YOURSELF IN POSITION TO HANDLE ANY MUSIC SITUATION. LEARN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS.
how many of you guys can play the piano, know the notes, scales and chords? (i have seen dr. dre play on tv). i went to berklee as a drummer (got 2 year degree) my theory was limited but i left i was playing the piano (not great) and that same theory i applied to the guitar. now i play the guitar (not great). now a little bass, basically i could play a few instruments now. now i know how the piano parts fits the groove, how the guitar parts fits the groove and my music sounds betters. just because of theory.
so descartes, i do agree with your post. if an individual just makes beats and samples someone elses material NO THEORY IS NEEDED. MOST OF THE WORK IS DONE BY THE PERSON WHO YOU ARE SAMPLING.
i think the more you know about music the better the music.
finally, ear training is part of theory. so in imo a hiphip producer with a decend ear and theory is better than a great ear by itself.
there is not much theory in making a drum beat and sampling. for a drum beat, know where the one is, snare on 2 and 4, bass drum on any beat and hihat on any beat (fiddle with it until it sounds good). sampling, get a cd, sound forge (rip the section of the song), recycle (to chop up the beat), acid (to strectch the sample if needed) and load the samples. no theory needed at all. period. I AM A HIPHOP PRODUCER.
in your post you talked about jazz and theory, duke ellingtioin, charlie parker and MOST (not all) of the greats knew/know theory. stevie wonder, earth, wind and fire, prince, jimmy jam/terry lewis and qunicy jones (has produce hiphop) know theory.
out of all the hiphop producer you know who can make better beats than prince or jimmy jam/terry lewis (both know theory)?
my question, why does berklee school of music, rochester school of music, miami un. etc (the best music schools) have a hiphop programs? in order to get into these school you must have some knowledge of theory.
if you just want to make a drum beat and sample someone else material you do not need theory, the work is done for you all ready. if you want to make orginal music theory is the way to go. that is why there are berklees and miami un.
the qunicy jones thing (he went to berklee) he can make jazz, classical, soul, r & b and HIPHOP. so my point is DO NOT SHORT CHANGE YOURSELF.
PUT YOURSELF IN POSITION TO HANDLE ANY MUSIC SITUATION. LEARN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS.
how many of you guys can play the piano, know the notes, scales and chords? (i have seen dr. dre play on tv). i went to berklee as a drummer (got 2 year degree) my theory was limited but i left i was playing the piano (not great) and that same theory i applied to the guitar. now i play the guitar (not great). now a little bass, basically i could play a few instruments now. now i know how the piano parts fits the groove, how the guitar parts fits the groove and my music sounds betters. just because of theory.
so descartes, i do agree with your post. if an individual just makes beats and samples someone elses material NO THEORY IS NEEDED. MOST OF THE WORK IS DONE BY THE PERSON WHO YOU ARE SAMPLING.
i think the more you know about music the better the music.
finally, ear training is part of theory. so in imo a hiphip producer with a decend ear and theory is better than a great ear by itself.
By digital_bastard
Mon May 03, 2004 2:47 pm
I've been playing music since I was a kid. I did not write one single song of my own while taking classes, but began doing so when I quit taking lessons, so I definitely believe taking classes took a toll on my creativity, as I focused on the mechanics of playing and reading music instead of writing.
My point is, it took me changing instruments (guitar instead of saxophone), changing genre (grindcore & hardcore punk instead of jazz & classical) and changing context (playing live, with and for friends, instead of playing with and for people I did not know).
If you decide to take classes, make sure you have your focus set when beginning. Theory is not law. Chords do not have to sound "nice" to be useful.
My point is, it took me changing instruments (guitar instead of saxophone), changing genre (grindcore & hardcore punk instead of jazz & classical) and changing context (playing live, with and for friends, instead of playing with and for people I did not know).
If you decide to take classes, make sure you have your focus set when beginning. Theory is not law. Chords do not have to sound "nice" to be useful.
By digital_bastard
Mon May 03, 2004 2:48 pm
The creation and consumption of music is a highly subjective matter.
By Sweet Time
Mon May 03, 2004 2:52 pm
Stravinsky, although I don't really listen to his music or like it all that much, said that in order to be creative you have to impose limits on your music. Remember the blues scale is only 5 notes!
That's theory, Limits.
That's theory, Limits.
"Only 12 notes that a man can play" -Beastie Boys
By mwalker
Mon May 03, 2004 4:02 pm
i just think it is nice to know what an individual is playing. how many times an individual seqences a song and the system crash (you lost your work) and could not reproduct it because it was lucky how they got the sequence in the first place. how many times have you played a sequence you made in the past but could not edit it because you for got what what key the sequence is in? creative IS subjective. i just brought my wife a paint set, i tried it out and now i am an artist. i painted a tic tac toes game and i called the painting "the game". so i do understand, i never took a class, no training and now i am a painter. i hope i could sell it to a studio because it looks like one of the better tic tac toe game i have ever painted. 
By digital_bastard
Mon May 03, 2004 4:29 pm
There's no need to get snippy about it. There's more than one side to it, as I said, but you seem to have a hard time acknowledging that there can exist opposing views that are equally "right".