How to step your composition game up?

This is NOT another sampling vs composition thread, My intentions are more so along the line of trying to help my composition as well as others reading in the process

With sampling to keep getting better you have to work on your chopping, looping, ear for finding samples, etc, but with composing its not as easy to know what to do as far as lifiting your composition skills up

The most important thing would have to be Music Theory, so you can start to understand how Music interlocks, but after MT, whats next?

I am tired of not only hearing novice keyboard beats, but also spending ALOT of time just randomly searching for notes that sound good togethor with various instruments, trying to keep my keyboard beats from being novice

Anyone who is pretty good with composition can you please shed some light or direction to those that are trying?

good stuff iceberg^^^^^^^^^ where can i study music theroy? leave me a link

learning how to program your drums is a start.......for example, just go to any Drum and bass board and I swear 95% of those gys are 1. using software, 2. using the same damn breaks over and over again(Amen, Amen, frickin amens), and 3 are worried more about the sound of thier hoovers and reeces than actually producing or discussing music or technique.....Its like if you try to ask them about the basics of programming a drum track, you'll only end up with everyone chimming in,"Huh, mate? I chop breaks up the arse!"......its sickening but then again thats why guys like Squarepusher and such can come in the game and dominate over most these fools anyhow.......I feel like if you program your own drum tracks instead of chopping up someone else's particularly if you make jungle/dnb then you will have greater control over your track versus taking a break and wasting time tryingto chop and mangle it into the desired break you want.........for example go her to see what I mean..........
dogs on acid bulletin board-writing complex break patterns

IMO the more you practice writing song's the better you become.Unfortunately the tendency is to get stuck in formula writing, because it's easier that way to come up with stuff. Another problem is when you get stuck in a certain style, like for example "this is a hip hop song, i can't use a house 4 to the floor
kick. Do you ever wonder why so many artists sound the same?
Everyone is copying each other, sometimes the record labels tell their artist to sound like so and so because their selling a lot.Writing music is a skill, but it also involves creativity, you can't buy creativity, you have to earn it through woodsheading.
Take you'r top 5 favorite cd's and listen to them in a logical way, pick them apart, ask yourself why you like them. Is it because the synth sound is is great? Spend more time programing your synth's. Is it because the drum's are kicking?
Try listening to the drum's only tune out the outher stuff,what is he doing? Now turn off the cd and go directly to the mpc(preloaded with fav drum kits) Now clear your mind, let go of self judgement and just go for it. There is a diference between
copying, and being infuenced by.There is no short cut to this thing, but a lot of artist write a lot more that you think. Some guy's write 50 to 100 songs for one cd (demo style) then pick the best 10 songs from there. Most get feed back from pepole they trust and respect on which one's sound the best, most artist test release new song's on live audiences to see if they like.You might think one of you song's sound's "novice" and maybe you wrote it real quick and don't think much of it,well let pepole hear it before you scratch it, that could be the hit song!
You would be suprised at how many time's this has happened.
Song's are the equivalent of human emotions, and life experiences so don't forget to EXPRESS YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

Iceberg: The rest of the posters have covered a lot of ground. Not much more for me to say but this:

Try to write a completely different type of song to what you normally make. Make an electro song or a all-out guitar-based indie pop song. It's even better if you try to make a decent song in a genre you don't even like. When you get back to what you really want to do, you might have picked up a few new styles in your arsenal that you can integrate into your sound or style of writing.

But most importantly: have fun. I tend to make cheesy, unserious songs every now and then to break down a creative block. Sure, they stink and I'm the only one that think they're any fun, but it seems to work.

Oh, and another thing: every song doesn't have to be a masterpiece. That kind of pressure can make you crazy!

Good point's digital,
it's also a good idea listen to you'r own stuff and see where you can make improvments. Maybe cut out a part thats over done, or build the intro a little more. It's good to make note's too, find your weak point's(if any)
say i need more bridges and breaks in my song's, or more room to breath inbetween verses, write this down on a piece of paper and tape it to you'r monitor, so next time you write you will remember what to work on.

well, i disect songs i listen too. Id start with the bass. you can build whole melodies off a good bassline. But listen to one instrument, and listen to what it does. And im talkin about songs other than hiphop.....anyways, for the longest time id listen to hiphop songs, and not realize how they break down the composition. Then id try to write some kind of melody, and it was just not working; but i realized that Most hiphop songs are based off of 2 bars(not alot), but the way the melody progresses, it makes it seem like more. You would be suprised at how simple some songs are, but they sound comples when everything is put together. Its how the instruments interplay and interact with eachother. Count out measures, listen to how many bars the melody spans, then look at things like, how does the bass interact with the main instrument, then how does that bassline interact with the drumS? How does the main instrument interact with the drums?

you can analyze others songs and try to replicate it, but sometimes just copying a melody style wont work......its the whole picture, especially with keyboard beats....you have to learn how the drums, bass, keyboard all interact with eachother to make the melody complete. Just like a kick and snare. WEll that is simple, you have to have the snare otherwise the kicks are pointless, same goes with other instruments.

Dont disregard sampling. If you have a good ear for sampling, finding good loops, then you have the ability to listen for TONIC notes/chords, and also progressive ones....(these are elements of good melodies)other skills of sampling are relizing moods of differant elements, or if youare able to accent samples with the bass, what makes a small loop complete, etc. Its the same song building process, only with keyboard beats, you have to come up with the loop too. ya know? Listen to sample heavey producers, look at how they mixed two samples, how they used the bass in with it, etc.

There is more to it then just putting together notes, that is why people sample, sometimes you arent able to perform or capture a way a violin is played, just by using the violin on your triton. When you go to write a melody, go in thinking like a sampler.......copy a small phrase of another song, dont care what notes you use, or what order of the notes, but mimic the mood of it, the speed, whether it goes up or down, record that. Practice that, then apply what you know to music theory and what notes go together.

also, just putting notes together wont do it:

**** THE SOUND creation process IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART.....i look at creating a sound like this: a unique sound begs to be used a certain way, all i have to do is hear it, then play with it, until it takes me the way it wants to go. ya know?

like if you just use a piano, then it will be more difficult, because a piano can be taken so many ways, but if you synthesize a wicked stab with a wierd atmospheric background, and bleep at the end, then itll have a direction you can take it.....almost as if you didnt even have the write the melody, it was already there, it wrote itself.....these are the best melodies because they just make sense. WHY? because its more than just a note, its a combination of differant elements, its got a mood, or feel to it. A piano note is just a note, not too much too it-same reason we use chords. You can make a good sounding beat with 3 chords, but in contrast, just 3 notes wont sound as interesting, a chord holds depth, it combines more than just one element-try to accomplish this with your sounds.

again, not to jump on the sampling aspect, but above is essentially why i sample, because i can pick 1 sound, not a melody, but a unique chord or something, then let it take me somewhere, even if it leads me to create my own unique sound.

LET ME BREAK IT DOWN DIFFERANTLY: what sentance is more interesting?

a: "i went to the store to get some food"

b: "i strolled to the cornerstore, because i was hungry like a horse"

ANSWER:sentance b sounds better and is more interesting because it tells more of the story, and also incorporates other elements that give it momentum to go somewhere. Yeah, a is straight and to the point, its clear, consize, nothing wrong with it, text book or Music theory is, BUT IT HAS NO MOMENTUM. Sentance b is still music theory ish i.e. proper, but its got elements that make it interesting.


also sentance b implies other ideas. like, "i strolled" implies a cool feel, happily walking....incontrast "i went" is like using the I chord and IV chord, but in plain 16th notes, not groove or nothing to it. "i was hungry like a horse" begs the reader to ask "why was he hungry?", it also is tonic, like the I chord and V chord.....it completes the sentance to why he went to the store. Just some thoughts to get your mind rolling.

peace

cyrus wrote:
LET ME BREAK IT DOWN DIFFERANTLY: what sentance is more interesting?

a: "i went to the store to get some food"

b: "i strolled to the cornerstore, because i was hungry like a horse"

ANSWER:sentance b sounds better and is more interesting because it tells more of the story, and also incorporates other elements that give it momentum to go somewhere. Yeah, a is straight and to the point, its clear, consize, nothing wrong with it, text book or Music theory is, BUT IT HAS NO MOMENTUM. Sentance b is still music theory ish i.e. proper, but its got elements that make it interesting.


also sentance b implies other ideas. like, "i strolled" implies a cool feel, happily walking....incontrast "i went" is like using the I chord and IV chord, but in plain 16th notes, not groove or nothing to it. "i was hungry like a horse" begs the reader to ask "why was he hungry?", it also is tonic, like the I chord and V chord.....it completes the sentance to why he went to the store. Just some thoughts to get your mind rolling.

peace

"strolled to the cornerstore.."
ha ha good ish!

posted at another forum:

Anyway rule one....... Chords........
Take one normal chord sequence in this case C major to F minor....... then repeat........
I assume you probably played it something like this.......
C major = C, E, G (a simple 1, 3, 5 structure)
F minor = F, Ab, C (a simple 1, b3, 5 structure)

This is rule one, we will no longer play any route notes in the right hand (RH) all route notes will be left to the left hand (LH)....... so why do you play it like this?....... having too many route notes makes a chord sound cloudy and too prominent especially important with pad sounds where you want them to sit in the background and just complement the melody......... so we therefore cut them out ...... BTW play LH route notes an octave below the RH notes...... For arguments sake use C3 and F2.........
LH RH
C major = C E, G
F minor = F Ab, C

Now that sounds shite basically so we need to add in some more notes to make the chords more....... colourful....... ahem....... anyway we’ll add a 7th and a 9th in each of them...... C major therefore becomes C major 9 played........
LH RH
C B, D, E, G (played 7, 9, 3, 5)
and F minor becomes F minor 9 played........
LH RH
F Ab, C, Eb, G (played b3, 5, b7, 9)
Now play those two beauties one after another and they sound fantastic...... hey presto you’re Roni Size.......

So basically what’s going on there....... well apart from it sounding dangerously close to jazz you are actually just spacing out the notes so that they each have their own space and it makes what was originally a basic chord sequence actually sound quite complex........

i don’t want to go into why chords are formed this way, any music book can tell you why a major ninth has a major 7th and why a minor ninth chord has a flat 7th....... that’s the boring theory stuff.......

So what’s my point to all this? well i was having trouble creating chord sequences that actually sound cool so i went back to my jazz piano theory notes and looked at what they did........ and just by playing chords in this way (the sans route note method hehehe) and adding 7ths and 9ths changes everything and just breathes life into old and tired chord changes....... and lets face it we are at a stage in dance where there is so little variety going about that to hear something a little different is quite refreshing........ and anyway whatever your next masterpiece is going to be somebody’s always done something similar......... probably the Beatles hehehe

I hope this has all made some sense at least, well i’ve not read it through myself yet, i’m tired so if anybody’s interested i’ll gladly do another installment at a later date.......... if not errr....... i’ll get me coat.....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


hope it helps

greg

wow, I cant express how much just the time you guys have taken out your day to post here, means alot, thanks especially cyrus amd dub, those bits of info got me going

I been going thru frustration with my composition at the moment to the point where I'm only sampling, because Im somewhat intimidated by compositition at the moment only because its just not comming togethor atm, but I got some things to try and get me back to going in here, feel free to post anything you want I will def read it, I'm already going to print and hang this next to my triton

Iceberg-Slim wrote:wow, I cant express how much just the time you guys have taken out your day to post here, means alot, thanks especially cyrus amd dub, those bits of info got me going

I been going thru frustration with my composition at the moment to the point where I'm only sampling, because Im somewhat intimidated by compositition at the moment only because its just not comming togethor atm, but I got some things to try and get me back to going in here, feel free to post anything you want I will def read it, I'm already going to print and hang this next to my triton

yeah, i know what your sayin. Sometimes ill just go in and out of sampling adn composition. ill make a good beat with composition, get all excited, then try another and it suck!!! most of the time when i do some kind of sampling, itll turn out good, sometimes bangin, but never suck!!!! i wish i could say the same for my keyboard beats. Ive sort of turned to makin my keyboard beats lilke my sampling ones. I ll sample and resample chords, and stabs and shit like i would off vinyl, i just use my keybaord instead. I also am forming some of my own signature sounds. And getting alot into synthesis for some wicked sounds.

what kind of board do you use? peace

no worries..i found that from another forum and its good for those unititaed with chords to get a bit of a grounding...

essentially i will write a root note pattern first and build the chords around it.......

greg

this is a great thread. imo, i think rymthm, phasing and voicing is very inportant. for rythm, play a swing beat (1 an e 2 an e 3 an e 4 an e) to all the music you listen to (just tap with your finger). this will help with your rythm. for phasing take the melody of "mary had a little lamb" or any melody and experment with a rock feel, jazz feel, latin feel, etc. take some basic chords and use the inversions and add 6th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th this will help with your voicing. when i talk about music theory, i am basically talking about learning an instrument. learn to a piano or guitar will help greatly.

This is a great thread guys. My problems with my tracks is i can come up with a good melodie buy pushing single notes(C to D to F to B) but i get stuck once i have to add a counter melody or a supporting melody. As of right now, all my beats never use any chords, just single note melodies and when i listen to them they all seem to have alot going on that seems to flow but not interlock with each other. When i compare my beats to ones on thats on cd's, I feel a lack of something. After reading Cyrus break down how some sounds work within a track with out having to do much compare to a piano and the fact chords is what makes piano sound shine.....i went back to the drawing board and instead of working on making melodies push one note(key) at a time i started to combine more than one key at a time to form chords try to make a melody. I have found my beats have a more ALIVE vibe. I use make four bar melodies pushing single notes and after a i just loose intrest in it cause it just was so thin and didnt blend with the other single key meleodies i put together. Now i come up with a freaky chord melody and i can let it ride for the who beat with out it getting on my nervs. I build my beats from the chrods and up now and they sound good but im still new so i need to practice more. I been teaching my self the piano as of this year using a teach your self book from boarders. The book is good but the chords they use are really simple(C,E,G,) or in that format and i havent got to the point where chords should have come into play with my music but reading this thread has gave me a new spark and im gona go buy a book on music thearoy so i can get lil understanding. Ill get for dumies one cause i just want o learn some of the basics and next year ill take classes .