Tutorial: Using Logic Pro 8 With Your MPC4000

This post is continuing on from the previous page/post.

In this post: http://www.mpc-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=104735
the user beatfiend01 asks how he can use reason instruments along with logic all being controlled from the mpc.

Clint asked me to discuss this issue in this thread instead of another so here it goes:

We all know how to control Logic properly when ONLY using logic instruments or 3rd party AU instruments in Logic's software instrument tracks from the MPC. Done deal.

If you don't, read David's post here: http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=32201

Many people might want to control Logic AND also trigger instruments from Reason that have been rewired through Logic.

A Logic software instrument gives you the ability to set which channel it will receive midi data on (1-16).

Under normal circumstances (no MPC/external sequencer) when you want to use a reason instrument rewired in Logic, you basically convert an external midi instrument into a Logic instrument. Once you have your reason instruments loaded into reason, go back to logic, select your external midi instrument, go to your library browser, navigate to reason, and choose the instrument you want to control. Be sure to create an aux so that you can monitor reason's sounds through logic.

Here is the problem, you no longer have choice on what midi channel that Reason instrument receives on like you do when using a software instrument in Logic. And no, the channel choice under "Bus" does not help in the inspector. I have tried. Sure, the instrument will be triggered, but you can't control what channel triggers it.

I am guessing it was written like this because Apple intended for Logic to be the master sequencer, and not just a rack of modules for an mpc. This is not a problem when working in the box since you only deal with one channel at a time. This is not the case when working from the MPC platform or when using an other hardware sequencer.

Clint, what is your work around? You said you had some ideas on this but would discuss it in the appropriate thread. I am curious to see if it is similar.

I will share my work around for those who do want to use both logic instruments and reason instruments together.

Use an MPC to Control Logic AND Reason Rewired Instruments Simultaneously

-Don't bother creating a Reason instrument through the external midi track in Logic's arrange window as you would under normal circumstances (No mpc/external sequencer)
-Look at the channels currently being used by software instruments in logic if you have any (look in the inspector)
-Place Reason instruments in Reason's hardware device channel slots that are NOT used by any software instruments in Logic. (press the advanced midi device button)
-Make sure your midi interface device is shown in Reasons hardware device interface display.
-Route these Reason instruments through an AUX track in Logic so you can hear them
-The MPC will be able trigger Logic software instruments on channels you selected in the Logic track inspector, and it will also be able to trigger straight to Reason instruments on channels you selected in the Reason midi hardware interface.

**Remember that you won't have any Reason instruments in Logic's arrange window! They are controlled using Reasons hardware interface that sits in the top of the rack.

How do you record? When you are ready to record your work after the creation process is finished, create an audio track for each reason device going to be recorded. Use a Bus in order to send sound from the Reason Aux track you created in logic to the correct audio track in Logic. I never use a Reason mixer since I can route each Reason instrument to its ow aux channel in Logic.

You can still record logic software instrument tracks as midi tracks though. I frowned at the fact I couldn't record midi information for these Reason tracks successfully in a controlled manner, but I realized recording to audio is no different then when I need to track in my mpc, sp-1200, or any other gear.

Again, if all you are using is Logic software instrument tracks with logic and/or 3rd party instruments with your mpc, this doesn't apply to you.

If you are using Logic software instruments while triggering Reason instruments simultaneously, remember to use a blank instrument that stays selected. Why?

From the manual:

When Multiplayer Recording: Incoming MIDI events are distributed to the various record-enabled tracks, in accordance with transmitted MIDI channel numbers.
-The channel of the incoming event must correspond to the channel of a record-enabled track, in order for this functionality to work.
-If no track with a corresponding channel number is found, the event will be routed, and recorded, onto the selected track.

**Logic will interpret midi channel information going to Reason as midi channels with no destination, and therefore trigger the last selected track as explained above. This is why I use an empty software instrument that stays selected. Logic programmers need to get rid of this illogical function. Pro Tools doesn't do this. The pro tools instrument/midi tracks only respond to channel information they are set to. There is no "I guess I will just trigger the last selected instrument since I don't know how to ignore it."

**UPDATE: Instead of using blank software instruments, you can also right click on the aux you created for the Reason instrument in the mixer and create/select an arrange track for that particular Reason instrument aux. This aux arrange track will not record audio nor data, but it can act as a visual represenation of a Reason instrument. It can also serve the purpose of a blank selected instrument as explained above (due to the way Logic handles midi message with "no home" to go to). Remember, you can't record audio or midi onto this track, It is just a place holder, and you therefore need to route this aux to an audio track with a bus to record the audio from Reason.

In terms of being controlled by external gear such as the MPC, Pro Tools shines in this arena from a functional stand point. It doesn't matter whether you are using a plug in instrument or using a rewire instrument. You still have an option of setting a receive channel for either, which lets you record midi data for the reason instrument from an external sequencer like an mpc on multiple channels. As said above, a PT instrument track only receives on channels it is set to, thereby making any empty instrument tracks unnecessary. But, as we know, pro tools offers no delay compensation or the vast included sound library that Logic does, so we must compromise.

Hope this helps those who like to use the MPC, Logic, and Reason all together.

JaeOne3345 wrote:Clint, what is your work around? You said you had some ideas on this but would discuss it in the appropriate thread. I am curious to see if it is similar...I will share my work around for those who do want to use both logic instruments and reason instruments together.

Ok what I said was "I can think of various ways to achieve this", but it is not something that I do personally. Reason being, the issue is simply one of midi routing. If you are comfortable routing midi around in your DAW and know what you are doing, using Rewire the way YOU want to should be pretty simple to work out.

JaeOne3345 has just given one viable method which sounds about right, although if I understood correctly, was unable to record midi directly to the re-wired tracks?

If that is the case, I'll have a look at it over the weekend. Its Friday people!!

JaeOne3345 wrote:Use MPC to Control a Multitimbral Instrument In Logic

This method will allow you to use an mpc to control once instance of a muti timbral instrument in Logic on/from multiple midi tracks.

-Load a multi timbral instrument like battery in a software instrument track
-Set your cells that will be used in battery to their own midi channels. You could substitute battery with any multi timbral midi instrument, just make sure you set up your channels to control different cells/patches.
-Create a *new track with next midi channel* for as many different midi channels you need in your multi (in my case, Battery) Lets say I am using channels 1, 2 and 3 for battery cells. So I create 2 more tracks using the new with next midi channel function. I now have 3 tracks all pointing to battery.
-Using the Logic inspector, set each of these tracks to the midi channels used in the Battery cells. (track 1 = midi channel 1, etc)
-Arm each track so that you can hear each instrument

Remember to use the demix check box under project settings-recording

You will then be able to trigger/monitor/record different battery cells that will go on their own track, from ONE instance of battery.

With this example, remember that you used channels 1-3, so you can't use these for any other software instruments or mpc tracks.

*This can be applied to any multitimbral instrument, not just Battery*

Maybe you should put this post in the 'Logic Pro Tip's 'n' Tricks' thread where it may be more useful...

clint246clint wrote:

JaeOne3345 wrote:JaeOne3345 has just given one viable method which sounds about right, although if I understood correctly, was unable to record midi directly to the re-wired tracks?

If that is the case, I'll have a look at it over the weekend. Its Friday people!!

When working in the box using Logic's sequencer you can control a Reason Rewired software instrument on its own arrange track because you don't need advanced control. Its a one track a time type deal.

When using an external sequencer where you want to monitor/record multiple tracks with each being on their own receive channel, you lose control over this Reason Rewired software instrument because it will not have a midi receive channel that you can specify.

Understood, I'll look at it...

CHARLIEPLATNUM wrote:Nice post, I was using Logic Pro 8 like this with my MPC 1000 until I stumbled up on some MPC 3000 quantize templates for Logic. So now I have all of Logic's quantize and swing capabilities as well as the MPC 3000's within the same project/song.....So for people rockin' Logic, and don't have an MPC, but miss the feel.........download the free MPC3000 quantize template. They also have ASR10 and SP1200 templates too.

Can anybody explain how to do this step by step with with the mpc1000 and Logic 7?
Would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

C.

cafnyc wrote:Can anybody explain how to do this step by step with with the mpc1000 and Logic 7?

Not in this thread. Read the title.

JaeOne3345 wrote:

clint246clint wrote:

JaeOne3345 wrote:JaeOne3345 has just given one viable method which sounds about right, although if I understood correctly, was unable to record midi directly to the re-wired tracks?

If that is the case, I'll have a look at it over the weekend. Its Friday people!!

When working in the box using Logic's sequencer you can control a Reason Rewired software instrument on its own arrange track because you don't need advanced control. Its a one track a time type deal.

When using an external sequencer where you want to monitor/record multiple tracks with each being on their own receive channel, you lose control over this Reason Rewired software instrument because it will not have a midi receive channel that you can specify.

If you really knew your software, you'd be thinking like me.

The solution is easy and you'll probably kick yourself once I give it to you, will post it later maybe...

JaeOne3345 wrote:I understand that Clint was kinda making this a simple solution, but you don't need to load any electronic kit template. This might be a waste of time for some people especially if they know they would never use those instruments anyway.....I explain how to incorporate Reason into all this madness on the next page/post.

My tutorial was designed to enable everyone follow the same steps and hear the same results. That is how you teach. Please don't jump in and confuse people with late, and rather obvious comments.

I have read what you posted here and it is full of inaccuracies. If you do not know your software inside out, you cannot give advice to people about what can and cant be done. Learn before you teach.

Having said that, be careful what you post. You may well expose your own lack of knowledge.

clint246clint wrote:If you really knew your software, you'd be thinking like me.

The solution is easy and you'll probably kick yourself once I give it to you, will post it later maybe...

If I really knew my software??

Then please explain in another post, how to set a midi receive channel on a Reason Rewired instrument once you have converted an external midi instrument into a Reason instrument in the arrange track area?

When the external midi is still a GM instrument, yes, you have a receive channel that you can select. To use this external midi instrument with a Reason instrument, you go to library, go to the reason area, and double click on the reason device you want to load. Am I wrong? This is the proper way to set up a reason device under normal circumstances in Logic where you are using Logic in an ITB fashion (only operating one midi instrument at a time). In this method a midi receive channel isn't necessary.

Once you have converted this external midi instrument into a Reason instrument, it no longer displays a midi receive choice for that arrange track as it does for a software instrument or a normal external midi instrument before being converted to a Reason rewired instrument. Under channel it does list your reason instruments in a 1-16 fashion, but you don't have any control on what they receive on. This step is important when using Logic in this method. This is why I use Reason's own hardware device to place instruments in midi channel slots so that I retain control over what channel they receive on.

Show me another way.

Perhaps you should take a gander at David's guide here: http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=32201
Step 3 clearly says:
"3. Set Each Logic Track's MIDI Channel
In Logic, set each instrument track's MIDI channel parameter so they are triggered by the controller sending on that channel. "
This is accompanied by the following image.



This is a crucial step.

Reason instruments rewired in Logic and set in the arrange window do not give you that choice. If they do, show me. Again, not an issue when working ITB or using Logic as the main sequencer. As I said before, this is how Logic was programmed because Pro Tools gives you a midi receive option for software instrument tracks or true midi tracks, regardless if you are controlling a plug in instrument, an external midi device, or an instrument being used through Rewire.

This is the second time you've given a run around about how you will post it later, or address it later. Please. This a forum for sharing information. Do so! One forum user asked, you said put it wasn't the appropriate place or something to that effect, and we still haven't heard anything helpful from you.

If you really knew your software, you'd be thinking like me.

The solution is easy and you'll probably kick yourself once I give it to you, will post it later maybe...

Clint please bestow us with your easy solution. I for one am looking for the most simple, nee elegant, way to go about this. Might a more powerful response be to just reveal your method and eff the back and forth?

clint246clint wrote:

JaeOne3345 wrote:I understand that Clint was kinda making this a simple solution, but you don't need to load any electronic kit template. This might be a waste of time for some people especially if they know they would never use those instruments anyway.....I explain how to incorporate Reason into all this madness on the next page/post.

My tutorial was designed to enable everyone follow the same steps and hear the same results. That is how you teach. Please don't jump in and confuse people with late, and rather obvious comments.

I have read what you posted here and it is full of inaccuracies. If you do not know your software inside out, you cannot give advice to people about what can and cant be done. Learn before you teach.

Having said that, be careful what you post. You may well expose your own lack of knowledge.

This is how you teach? You wanted everyone to be able to follow the same steps and hear the same results. Fine, but a true educator would also provide alternative instruction for a group of diversified learners during a lesson. Someone who may not understand Logic might interpret your post in way that they end up thinking an electronic template is necessary to start.

David (Logic Pro Help Moderator/Administrator) seems to mention no need of any preset templates here: http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=32201

No one on the Logic Pro forums seems to have any issues.

What if someone wanted to use a third party instrument as opposed to a Logic instrument on a software instrument track? Why did you not include such information in your guide? You can't assume that everyone from a diverse group of learners has such previous background knowledge.

Tell me what I posted that is inaccurate. I am willing to "learn" so let me know please!

Be careful what I post? I may expose a lack of knowledge? Regarding what?

Where are the problems in my post?

My tutorial was designed to enable everyone follow the same steps and hear the same results. That is how you teach. Please don't jump in and confuse people with late, and rather obvious comments.

I dunno Clint. David's post over at Logic Pro Help is a very simple explanation that accomplishes the same exact thing as what you explained, albeit in a much less roundabout fashion, and using even more effective pedagogy given that visuals are included to accommodate those for whom a visual learning style is their strength. In other words, his explanation is optimized to reach more learners--from a teaching standpoint one can view it as casting a wider net if you will. And as far as how one teaches, what exactly is it about using the electronic template as a starting point that represents correct pedagogy? JaeOne's insights have been helpful, which is what a forum, no, a community, like this forum is all about.

One truism that I've learned here is that, sometimes, moderator ego is a muthaf•cka.

Ok, it seems as though JaeOne and learnmedia have a few things to say about this tutorial, and my response to their questions.

First of all, I said I would look at it over the weekend. I have done that. Weekend is my time. I have a life and a family like most people. Forum comes last, during downtime so people must be patient and respect that.

This is my tutorial, it explains the way I do things using the MPC. I have no interest in what 'David' has to say on the other forum. If his post helps you out thats great, good for you. I see that he didnt give you guys the answers you wanted either...

You cant go around the forums harassing people for answers to your questions, be patient or go find the answers yourself.

I posted this 6 months ago and the information has and continues to help many of the members here, including those that join just to get what they cant find elsewhere. Answers. David's post went up 6 weeks ago and is really basic beginners stuff. David's post bears no relation to mine at all, there is no comparison. There are also many tutorials on youtube and elsewhere, you are free to follow any you choose.

I am not trying to help the world with Logic, just the members of this forum, but I know this thread comes up on google search results. If you read this thread you'd realise that I always try to help those who are polite and patient.

But you two come out of nowhere demanding answers, changing the tone of the thread with personal comments? Whats that all about?

Now I have no intention of being drawn into an argument so please dont spoil what has until now been an informative thread.

No one is trying to take any credit from you for posting this up. All I did was simply point out that some steps are not necessary for all readers/users. If they want to use your method they will. If they prefer what David has outlined then they will.

David's post bears no relation to mine at all, there is no comparison

How so? You are both explaining how to use an external sequencer, mpc, or multiple midi controllers along with Logic as a sound module. Your method uses a template (which may or not be of interest to people). Since you commented on how to properly teach someone, perhaps you should have included information letting people know they were not binded to a template or preset Logic instruments.

His method uses empty software instruments (which may help others who have no intension of using an electronic preset, or Logic's instruments), but to say they have no relation is absurd. Who cares when each post was put up. You want props because you put a similar thread up 6 months earlier on the internet? That in itself is an irrelevant factor in this discussion.

Both methods are helpful. You took another viable option as an attack. Thats on you. I simply pointed out another way (David's) that may be more efficient for some users, since it is quite related to your topic. Does that mean that one approach is good or bad? No. But it is a discussion forum, and it is always nice to see more the one way to skin a cat.

In regards to him giving me an answer: I did not ask him in that particular thread how to control a Reason instrument from the mpc once it is loaded into Logic. Of course he did not answer me. If he is not a user trying to control Logic and Reason sounds simultaneously, he most likely doesn't know anyway. I'd rather he not act like he knows. Thats a waste of time.

You have an extremely flawed view of "harassment" as you call it. I asked a question. Nobody demanded anything of you. If you do not know the answer, don't say anything. If you do know the answer and you don't feel like discussing, move on. Cut the run around about harassing people for answers, posting in the appropriate thread, your family life, or whatever else.
If you don't know, you don't know. Don't front.

Another user "beatfiend01" asked the same question here viewtopic.php?f=18&t=104735 near the middle of the thread but you gave him the run around about being in the proper area on the forum.

Your words:

I can think of various ways to achieve this, but this is not the thread for it.

Post in the correct thread and I will offer a reply to anyone that may be interested

I didn't know originally, so I asked in a relevant thread (this one) but also gave a possible solution for others using Logic and Reason together from the mpc (which is a very specific situation that most users of Logic/MPC probably don't run into). You never shared what you thought, and you didn't offer any helpful information to "those interested." As I already said, if you don't know, don't front. Say so and move on.

The thread is no longer informative? Sure it is. It is in fact MORE informative because now users have more information regarding the control of Logic through an MPC. Furthermore, beatfiend01 has a work around that will allow him to control Reason instruments as well.

You still never told me what I posted that can be deemed as inaccurate. Let me know, I will gladly fix it.

Jae One.