Exchange tips and tricks for the Akai MPC4000
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By Blue Haze Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:10 am
LvngDead wrote:wtf..?

blue haze, can you explain this EASY MO BEE situation? mixing traditional with new? HUUUUUH????



http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=9-MLp3l2fkA

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=d2T9WfHIhOM

In an interview Easy Moe Bee mixed traditional horns, hair dryers, and a numbers of sounds to come up these hits.

Creative use of samples in a keygroup program to come up with new melodies. Plus alot of sound designers work this way.


To clarify, EMB did the drum programming and sequencing on a EMu SP-1200. But like a number of artists at that time he used his melodic samples in a Akai S950 which is a full key group sampler. Through his work with Miles Davis he stated he strived to use the full range of the S950 instead of like most phrase sampling for his own music.


Now a number of electronic bands and dance producers s use full sampler samplers to come up with their own unique sounds from Depeche Mode http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=kHknGSp2bLI to http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Kedd2-0IE ... re=related and this http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=jrDiNP50W ... re=related

Now software works the same and this guys explains well http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=9AxXS6TczB8


A guy creation sounds with layered synth sounds that he sampled. http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=dxuFAH46mrc
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By Askia Shaheed Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:28 pm
Nym wrote:mmmmmm multi layered keygroups...sure wish we had that in jjos for standalone
guess that's why i have reaper but my hats off


But can't you use the 4 layers per pad to create a multi-layered keygroup?
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By LvngDead Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:17 pm
EVERYTHING I'm reading is leading me to believe that keygroups are damn possible with a lesser-capable sampler like the 2kxl. Maybe not keygroups with multiple layers/zones, but a keygroup with just one zone and different samples in various key ranges with different tuning. IT IS POSSIBLE, DAMNIT!!!!
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By dabmeister Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:28 pm
LvngDead wrote:EVERYTHING I'm reading is leading me to believe that keygroups are damn possible with a lesser-capable sampler like the 2kxl. Maybe not keygroups with multiple layers/zones, but a keygroup with just one zone and different samples in various key ranges with different tuning. IT IS POSSIBLE, DAMNIT!!!!


???
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By Blue Haze Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:32 pm
LvngDead wrote:EVERYTHING I'm reading is leading me to believe that keygroups are damn possible with a lesser-capable sampler like the 2kxl. Maybe not keygroups with multiple layers/zones, but a keygroup with just one zone and different samples in various key ranges with different tuning. IT IS POSSIBLE, DAMNIT!!!!



A drum sampler only has one key range per keygroup because it is designed for drums. You can only spread a one sample over a range by using 16 levels and set to tuning but that is just a workaround not the same.


Anything is possible what alot of work and time put forth into it. Plus a keygroup sampler beauty is layering and depth with other keygroups programs not just one keygroups program.


Corrected so that their is no misunderstanding of keygroups programs using MULTIs can be layered over other keygroup programs using one midi channel playing up to 128 keygroups programs if you wish layered over each other with a as many zones as you wish not just within one keygroup program like say a drum program with four zones. :idea:
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By Askia Shaheed Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:06 am
Blue Haze wrote:
LvngDead wrote:EVERYTHING I'm reading is leading me to believe that keygroups are damn possible with a lesser-capable sampler like the 2kxl. Maybe not keygroups with multiple layers/zones, but a keygroup with just one zone and different samples in various key ranges with different tuning. IT IS POSSIBLE, DAMNIT!!!!



A drum sampler only has one key range per keygroup because it is designed for drums. You can only spread a one sample over a range by using 16 levels and set to tuning but that is just a workaround not the same.


Anything is possible what alot of work and time put forth into it. Plus a keygroup sampler beauty is layering and depth with other keygroups not just one keygroups.


So you only get one keygroup. You can still add 4 layers per sound (the latest MPCs) that can be velocity switched. You can sample an instrument in different keys, assign them to 64 pads and tune them. In fact, you can layer the samples from the original source and sample them that way. People need to stop making excuses. The first samplers were not even designed for Hip-hop cats. But they took them things, sampled, slice/diced...now this has generated numerous sources of new income and creative music. A keygroup sampler does not equal hit music. Creativity goes a long way....

Additionally, the original drum samplers didn't have full ADSR enevelopes, LFOs, velocity layers....these new machines are much more than drum/phrase samplers...
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By Blue Haze Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:41 am
Askia Shaheed wrote:
Blue Haze wrote:
LvngDead wrote:EVERYTHING I'm reading is leading me to believe that keygroups are damn possible with a lesser-capable sampler like the 2kxl. Maybe not keygroups with multiple layers/zones, but a keygroup with just one zone and different samples in various key ranges with different tuning. IT IS POSSIBLE, DAMNIT!!!!



A drum sampler only has one key range per keygroup because it is designed for drums. You can only spread a one sample over a range by using 16 levels and set to tuning but that is just a workaround not the same.


Anything is possible what alot of work and time put forth into it. Plus a keygroup sampler beauty is layering and depth with other keygroups not just one keygroups.


So you only get one keygroup. You can still add 4 layers per sound (the latest MPCs) that can be velocity switched. You can sample an instrument in different keys, assign them to 64 pads and tune them. In fact, you can layer the samples from the original source and sample them that way. People need to stop making excuses. The first samplers were not even designed for Hip-hop cats. But they took them things, sampled, slice/diced...now this has generated numerous sources of new income and creative music. A keygroup sampler does not equal hit music. Creativity goes a long way....

Additionally, the original drum samplers didn't have full ADSR enevelopes, LFOs, velocity layers....these new machines are much more than drum/phrase samplers...




Simple understanding first


Keygroup samplers are meant to be played with keyboards and keyboard controllers. Using your method if you have a 88 key board that means you have to sample 88 samples times the 4 hits for soft, med, loud, hard velocity switching making up 352 samples all by hand and all tuned pads a hell of alot of work when a keygroup sampler does it with other 70 samples total velocity layering and keyspans together. Plus with your method you can`t even layer the multiple programs over each other unless you copy the tracks assigning different programs but losing velocity switching within the programs themselves think about it.

Alot of hip hop cats used a keygroup sampler accompanying a drum sequencer to loop a phrase on keygroup sampler attached to a midi keyboard just assign it to a single keyspan how do you think they used the S950s, Casio Z and the Emu 6000 series they didn`t just use an mpc. But when cats started just going for 4 bar or more phrases alot of it was simplified with just an mpc 3k, 2xl because of the longer memory time. But the older cats still had a S1000, S3000 in the background to supply their basses, pianos, strings and a range of other traditional and not so traditional sounds how did Rza get out the box by using his ESP and ASR10 keygroup range to play melodies crazily.

Alot of this understanding is lost to alot of cats I think because of the Puffy era of taking a 8 to 16 bar loop adding drums and calling it a day with a 3k or 2xl without knowing the history and creativity of what samplers do. The first drum machines were analog working full samplers that is how the pioneers got down it wasn`t until 1988 that a affordable drum sampler was on the market and even that was meant as an accompaniment to a full sampler Akai S900-S950.

If you go back to do alot of the music research of the sampled based hits of the 1980s, 1990, til now and get a full account of how they made the music they did by looking in the production notes, interviews in keyboard mags, and of course little known details like what is in their production racks and how they incorporate them. To many people are fooled by just looking at a mag cover of a producer and a mpc smiling stating correctly that wryling that the mpc is the brains of the studio and heart but alot more was used beyond phrases and hits. If they didn`t have a full sampler they had rhodes, moogs, synths and others to add sounds to their setups. And this covers most dance music hip hop included.

Hip hop 1 essentially was djing blend two copies of the same breaks to extend them, 2 next layering phrases over the breaks, then chopping up the breaks and phrases to sequence to recreate original composing, and 3 then after that a step beyond was chopping up the breaks into hits to layer, phrases into notes to keygroup into pads, keys, instruments into your own new sounds until 4 BAM the switch to workstation keyboards with hundreds of build in sounds and the art of creative sound design was being lost because almost everyone was using similar presets from the major workstations instead of designing their own.

Now we are back to what is a keygroup sampler for isn`t it the same as a phrase sampler??? The illumini work is done and a generation is lost.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=FIEzwktirQk

For the Js and the unknown the keyboard sampling feels http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=F0H0h8sDSoQ raw for you.

You see this ain`t something new that just came out of nowhere NO, this is something OLD and DIRTY!!!!! OLD and DIRTY keygroup sampling.
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By Askia Shaheed Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:57 am
^
So...you have to ask yourself....why has Akai not included these features in its current line of products? They have the technology. Not only do they have Akai technology and resources..they also have Alesis (the makers of the Andromeda A6 and Fusion).

If these functions are what it's users want in an MPC, why would they not deliver especially since they already have the code? Why not make an updated version of the MPC 4000 with all the new features of the 5000/2500/1000?

I don't expect anyone to know the reason why...but I would speculate possibilities:
1. Not many people want such a product
2. These features are coming in the 5K, but they are taking their time to get it right
3. These features are not coming in the 5K but the 6K
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By Blue Haze Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:14 am
Askia Shaheed wrote:^
So...you have to ask yourself....why has Akai not included these features in its current line of products? They have the technology. Not only do they have Akai technology and resources..they also have Alesis (the makers of the Andromeda A6 and Fusion).

If these functions are what it's users want in an MPC, why would they not deliver especially since they already have the code? Why not make an updated version of the MPC 4000 with all the new features of the 5000/2500/1000?

I don't expect anyone to know the reason why...but I would speculate possibilities:
1. Not many people want such a product
2. These features are coming in the 5K, but they are taking their time to get it right
3. These features are not coming in the 5K but the 6K



First this isn`t the 4k vs 5k comparsion thread.

Second the question on topic is why are keygroups important and how are they used for which we have demonstrated.

Third the users of the 4k have already demanded these and a continuation back in 2004-2005 cuz the features that were originally for the 4k upgrade O.S. I was privy to the suprise info to compete with the MV but instead Nuakai made the MPC 2500 instead.

Fourth once Jack took over the whole of Akai the keygroup sampling engine line development
was stopped no more new keygroup samplers aka studio sampling line pass the Z8 series .

Fifth you are right the alot of the early adopters coming from the phrase sampling loop based mentality thought and still think that a keygroup sampler wasn`t necessary and difficult to work with especially thinking to play a keygroup on the pads, think about it??? It is made to work with a keyboard get it, keygroup=keyboard controller. Me too for a time until I sold my triton studio and started working more in the box with the 4k and software synths and samplers.

(I have to say that the world of software synths and samplers from ableton sampler, racks, reason combinations, and Korgs, EXS, and others expanded my understanding and I transfered my knowledge back to the 4k then it all made sense as I started out phrase sampling like most did too with very little understanding of sound synthesis possibilities.)

Sixth yeah with most of the mpc users with a drum sampling machine background the zero sum game by Nuakai is to give them what is easier another drum sampling machine abet a synth added. Remember the video where Jack was meeting with two cats about the kind of new mpc they wanted.

Seventh you and i would agree that software samplers are far beyond with hardware samplers can do integrated with a Daw so Nuakai went and probably will go with phrase sampling with added side elements remember it is all about the SAMPLES because they didn`t want to compete with software.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=xqm-A5nqeKQ this is an example of an incredible soft sampler it`s called synth but it is as powerful sampler.


Eighth back to what a keygroup programs can do for sound designing our own sounds I learnt alot from watching this fanstatic guys I transfer what I learnt back onto the 4k. Of course the 4k isn`t as powerful as definivitly as ominsphere but keygroup programs gives me the possibilites and ablities to create my own sounds from SAMPLES, SAMPLES in a KEYGROUP SAMPLER a beautiful thing.


http://www.spectrasonics.net/omnisphere ... large.html



Keygroup programs, Multis, and Program Matrix gives you tremendous options to create what instruments and sounds you want the real power of any keygroup sampler beyond a phrase sampler.


Simple once you understand what you can do. 8)
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By Blue Haze Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:39 am
From Sound On Sound Magazine quote

SAMPLERS AS SYNTHS

Now that most modern samplers are equipped with resonant filters, simple waveforms can be sampled and treated, to create the digital equivalent of an analogue synth. In theory, you could just load up your sampler with square, pulse, triangle, sawtooth and sine waves, then start synthesizing, but it's often more productive to start off by sampling the raw waveforms from a real instrument. The reason for this is that virtually all analogue synths colour or distort the waveforms to some extent, so if you can capture these benign colorations, you may end up with some of the character of the original instrument in your new sound.

When sampling a synth, it's usually best to set its low-pass filter cutoff frequency at maximum and the resonance at minimum, so as to remove the effect of the filter altogether. This lets you re-create the necessary filter sweep using the filter and filter envelope controls in your sampler. Similarly, turn off all LFO modulation, so as to get as static a sound as is possible. Again, you can put all this back using your sampler's own controls.

If the waveform is constant, you only need to sample a very short section -- indeed, a single cycle will do the trick, and because the sample is very short, any auto-looping facility you have should make light work of finding the best loop points for you. Sounds that evolve have to be treated differently, because the waveform is changing over time. If you have enough sample memory, you can sample a phase sync sound or a ring modulation effect, but unless you multisample, you'll find that the effect speeds up drastically towards the top of the keyboard, and slows to a near crawl at the other. Similarly, LFO pulse width modulation will change noticeably in speed, even if you do manage to loop the sample at a point that coincides with one full cycle of the modulation frequency. All in all, it's probably best to fake this particular effect by sampling an unmodulated sound, then either adding chorus, or layering the sound with a slightly detuned version of itself.

A typical modern sampler has good modulation facilities, portamento, nice-sounding filters and powerful envelope shaping capability, so when you think about it, you've got everything you need in a synth except the basic waveforms. What's more, you can mix analogue waveforms with sampled waveforms, to create hybrid string patches and so on. This aspect of the sampler is probably the most underrated, but I suspect that over the next couple of years we shall see the fine line between synths and samplers dissolve altogether.



CD-ROMS: HOW MUCH??

Compared to straightforward sample CDs, CD-ROMs seem hugely expensive (£200 is a typical CD-ROM price, compared to more like £60 for a sample CD) -- but when you consider that they can contain 600Mb or more of ready-mapped samples, they still make good commercial sense -- as long as enough of what's on the disk is likely to be useful to you. Indeed, there's little point in bootlegging samples from CD-ROMs (which is illegal anyway), because the removable disks you need to store the data on tend to cost more per megabyte than the CD-ROMs cost in the first place.

One of the limitations of the CD-ROM is that the samples provided can't be edited unless you save the edited result to a writable drive of some kind. So if you want to change loop points or do other processing tricks, you'll still need an external SCSI drive. However, most samplers will allow you to save only the program information (key mapping, envelopes, filter settings and so on) to a floppy, without the need to save the samples themselves. That means you can make up program disks that allow you to use the existing samples in different ways, using inexpensive floppies.

Having made the case for CD-ROMs, the truth is that you still end up paying for some samples that you'll never use, and I don't think it's any secret that the major sample providers are looking at ways of selling individual samples, possibly via the Internet. Whatever direction they take, as more people start to buy samples, the more the price will eventually come down -- which has to be good news for all of us.



SAMPLE CDs

Sample CDs are a lot cheaper than CD-ROMs, and usually contain the same samples as their CD-ROM counterparts (though occasionally fewer of them). The trade-off is that you have to load all the samples into your sampler, map them into keygroups and create the programs yourself.

You'll find the key ranges for each sample listed on the accompanying sleeve or booklet, so the procedure is more tedious than it is difficult, but if any of the samples need looping, it's down to you to find the best loop points. This can be very time-consuming, and requires a certain amount of experience to get right. If it's something you're going to be doing a lot of, then a software sample editing package such as Alchemy is well worth considering. I'm still using Akai's bundled Mesa software, which does the job well enough once you've cracked its cryptic routines, but its main weakness is that that it can't perform crossfade looping -- you have to go back to the sampler front panel for that.

When it comes to mapping your samples, you don't always have to go along with what the CD literature suggests. For example, instruments such as strings and flutes can be transposed quite a long way before they start to sound wrong, so you could get away with just one or two keygroups, if most of your playing is near the middle of the keyboard. Even instruments that do suffer when transposed outside their normal range can be abused to create special effects: check out the Art of Noise's early material to hear excellent examples of this.

Human voices don't take kindly to being moved too far from their native pitch, and the same is true of acoustic instruments with strong resonant formants, such as acoustic guitars and pianos. Here, you may need to have a new sample every three or four semitones to maintain a natural sound. In this case, you should arrange the original pitch of your instrument to fall in the centre of the keygroup, then listen carefully for differences in tone as you move from one keygroup to another.

Whenever you play back a sample at a higher pitch, the whole harmonic structure of the sound is moved up, with the result that the highest sound in one keygroup is likely to sound brighter than the lowest note in the next keygroup up. If the keygroups are narrow enough, this effect may be trivial enough to ignore, but if you're using only one or two keygroups per octave, it may be advantageous to use the tracking filters set up with a negative value, so that as you move up a keygroup, the top end is tamed slightly. Some samplers allow you to crossfade from one keygroup to another, but this reduces polyphony and may produce unnatural chorus effects on solo instruments.