produce or engineer

let me just say this was a great thread with excellent contributions from everyone, especially the Machinist. i learnt alot in this thread... thanks for sharing the knowledge

The Machinist wrote:Artist are interested in music or lyrics, but s/he usually doesn't understand all the gear or how to work it.

Engineer knows all the gear, is very technical and usually not really thinking about abstract things like art while stroking his API 550a original.

We are confronted with a major conflict now! These two "species" of people speak different languages. One musical jargon, the other tech lingo.

not really true. good engineers are always thinking about the song first, the art of it all. thats first and foremost the engineer's job, to make certain that the emotion and appeal of the song are properly captured and reproduced to the end listener. its not always about making something sound good, sometimes the exact opposite is whats called for. as an engineer, you ALWAYS have to put the song first, before your own ego or anything else.

watch this video from Dave Pensado. he explains it pretty well with the situation he ran into with Christina Aguilera's "Beautiful".

http://www.waves.com/Content.aspx?id=3330

he's on the right side of the page.

The Machinist wrote:There is no hierarchy! An engineer is not a beginner producer, lots of producers couldn't even begin to engineer and vice versa. These are all specialty positions, ideally involving people who are experts at what they do. Not many producers go around talking about dither, SRC algorithms, bias, transformers, gain staging, op-amps, acoustics and differences between convolution engines! Engineers often do. On the same note, not many engineers are experts at dealing with wild artists egos, knowing what session musicians to hire, getting the arranger in on time, dealing with office A&R folks, staying on budget, nor which studio to pick for that engineer who "gets you"! The best producers do! To go even further.....neither producers nor engineers usually know as much about music theory as musicians!

Sorry to go in on you a little bit here, but there's a lot wrong with this paragraph.

First, as an engineer I have to deal with all the stuff you mentioned, PLUS all the stuff you mentioned the producers deal with. In fact, I deal with things like wild artist egos and dealing with A&R people more than most producers I know of. Then I also have to know about music theory and pitch, how to tune the drums for the drummer, how to tune or re-string the guitar for the guitar player, etc. Its an all encompassing job. Especially in the hip hop and RnB world, often its only the artist and the engineer working on the record together. In those situations, you must also put on the producer hat and know how to coax the best performance possible out of the artist. And at the same time your producing, you need to also keep things straight technically, make sure the artist has an inspiring headphone mix, etc.

And I don't know about you, but the better producers I have worked with alll know MUCH more about music and music theory than musicians or artists.

The Machinist wrote:I definitely think that engineering can and most of the times is a creative undertaking as it does take aesthetics into consideration. Sometimes recording engineers don't have as much freedom as one would like if they're working with a producer or a demanding artists. Sometimes one person does both the recording and producing with a assistant, in which cause it becomes a total art form. Mixing definitely can be considered a creative engineering task as we're usually playing the role of another hybrid musician and/or arranger.....assisting in the overall emotion and expression of the song.
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i responded before i read this post. this was what i was trying to get across. its much more than simply making stuff sound good or running pro tools. most people think thats all it takes, and thats why there are so many sh*tty sounding records out these days.

kingrome_1 wrote:are there alot of ppl that do both or one of them on the side

there are, but none of them are good.


to be good at this stuff, it takes a lot of time and dedication...its not a part time thing

rickrock305 wrote:

kingrome_1 wrote:are there alot of ppl that do both or one of them on the side

there are, but none of them are good.


to be good at this stuff, it takes a lot of time and dedication...its not a part time thing

cause i like making beats and all but at the same time i wanna do engineering

i learned how to engineer out of necessity ... if you are in a real studio environment
and you yourself paid for the studio ... engineering services are extra..
sure you can make the music ... but can you route your own audio ...
effectly use midi .. tune guitars and basses .. mic drums /dynamic mic placement ... choose the right mics for vocals .. use compression effectly ..
learn how to use an equalizer properly .. the difference between graphic eq and dynamic eq.
these are just a few things a decent engineer will do .. i am no industry guru
but i have been working with music and inside studios recording since the 80's
alot has changed since then ... we used to have to edit reel tape (two track)
with editing blocks and razorblades ... now you can highlight and delete ,
there used to be no such thing as copy paste .. you had to record/slice/edit
a good engineer has a lot (repeat a lot) of real world experience not just
book knowledge .. being there and doing is 98.9% of learning how to engineer
properly.

just my two cents.

kingrome_1 wrote:

rickrock305 wrote:

kingrome_1 wrote:are there alot of ppl that do both or one of them on the side

there are, but none of them are good.


to be good at this stuff, it takes a lot of time and dedication...its not a part time thing

cause i like making beats and all but at the same time i wanna do engineering

well you have to figure out which one your better at or would enjoy more. neither are easy to break into or achieve success.

as a producer, generally you'll pick up on some engineering stuff out of necessity, for example knowing how to EQ or use reverb. but as an engineer you take that kind of detail to the next level, knowing which EQ to use for what you want to do and that kind of thing.

engineers and producers can learn a bit from each other but i think for the most part they are seperate roles.

an engineer knows how to make something sound nice and is knowledgeable of the rules of recording but it does not necessarily make him a creative force (usally), which is the role of the producer.

some producers eventually are in the studio long enough to understand the ins and outs of engineering but would rather focus on the creativity than learning technical jargon or what so and so frequency is, what so and so effect does, etc.

im pretty sure producers like timbo and dre know a bit of the engineering aspect but probably still rely on someone who specializes strictly on engineering.

an engineer and a producer might not always see eye to eye cuz an engineer for the most part wants to make something sound "professional" which to the artist or producer might rob a bit of the soul or grit of the record or might end up sounding totally different. thats why its important to work with an engineer who understands what you're going for and for the producer to get familiar at least somewhat with the process so that it may be easier for the both of them.

kingrome_1 wrote:

rickrock305 wrote:

kingrome_1 wrote:are there alot of ppl that do both or one of them on the side

there are, but none of them are good.


to be good at this stuff, it takes a lot of time and dedication...its not a part time thing

cause i like making beats and all but at the same time i wanna do engineering

I've worn both hats myself. I've engineered tracks in full-on recording studios and played the producer roll in smaller projects, mainly mine. The one big difference is that as an engineer, you really need to adjust to the talent's EGOS. That is probably about 50% of your role. I think anyone who has worked a few projects as an engineer can attest to that. That's just a reality in this game.

four eyes wrote:an engineer knows how to make something sound nice and is knowledgeable of the rules of recording but it does not necessarily make him a creative force (usally), which is the role of the producer.

not really true. depending on the artist or producer, the engineer gets plenty of creative input.

four eyes wrote:
an engineer and a producer might not always see eye to eye cuz an engineer for the most part wants to make something sound "professional" which to the artist or producer might rob a bit of the soul or grit of the record or might end up sounding totally different.

thats a garbage engineer.

a good engineer is there to best serve the record, however that may be. it may need to sound grimy and dirty to enhance the song. it depends. like i said, a good engineer at the end of the day is there to best capture the performance and to present the song in its best way possible. sometimes best doesn't always mean sounding good.

donjuan831 wrote:I've worn both hats myself. I've engineered tracks in full-on recording studios and played the producer roll in smaller projects, mainly mine. The one big difference is that as an engineer, you really need to adjust to the talent's EGOS. That is probably about 50% of your role. I think anyone who has worked a few projects as an engineer can attest to that. That's just a reality in this game.

very true. at least half of my job is people skills and has nothing to do with equipment. gotta make people feel comfortable and have a nice vibe so that they can perform at their best.

Sinamatik wrote:let me just say this was a great thread with excellent contributions from everyone, especially the Machinist.

This also has to be the most relevant question ever posed by the threadstarter Kingrome!

Interesting discussion for a change...

Damn, y'all just wrote a book,lol... I'm educated now though...thnx

dopedee wrote:one guy builds a race car and the other guy drives it.

Simple analogy, but it works!

The Machinist wrote:------------------------ here's a scenario.
Artist says to producer: Somethings not right about my guitar. It sounds ugly.
Producer says to engineer: Can you brighten up the Les Paul? The artist and I think it's a bit muddy and lacks presence, a little nasal even.
Engineer says to producer: A little bit of the 1176 at 4:1 to firm it up maybe? Aaannd....how about a 3dB or so cut at 270 cycles with a high Q and just a little bit out at 8k? Maybe even a slight shelf up from 12k, slightly reasonant?
Producer says to engineer: Yeah. That should do it and it should make it seem more upfront in the mix.
Producer says to artist: Sounding more musical?
Artist says to producer: Wow....that sounds like a record!

***Artist says to engineer: Oh yeah! Can I get some more ME in the phones? Thanks dawg!***

Now it's REALLY like a studio conversation