MPC 4000 with apogee ensemble or motu 828 mk3

MPC 4 ME wrote:They both sound very good. The out-of-the-box-MOTU doesnt sound as good as an Apogee but it is possible to upgrade (by BLA) the converters and signals paths of the MOTU (for cheap money) and then it will sound as good if not better..

BLA's mods are somewhat lacking, and just the installation of nicer Capacitors, and Op Amps isn't always enough. You still have to look to the quality of the converters and clocks.

Some of BLA's upgrades, actually I'd really say all, are NOT the best, and are very overpriced.

Burr's are not the best. for one.

I don't know if I'd say that the Black Lion mod's are lacking, but they are a little 'hyped' at this point in time and they are moving into the 'pricey' category at this time. I've followed Black Lion since they really started to pick up steam and slightly before that and have even offered to send them a more "Hi - end" converter to modify (AD 16X and DA 16X), which they avoided, and for good reason. They are great guys over there and do very good modifications that certainly improve the audio quality of various pieces, like the MOTU, DIGIDESIGN stuff, etc. If you send an M-Box, Motu, Echo,.... etc. you WILL See an improvement for sure, but as SMC stated, you may find the modification route "Somewhat lacking" and at the end only marginally 'cheaper'. If you can spend a lil mo', I'd definitely check out a Rosetta or Lynx Aurora, or even RME Fireface and of course, an Ensemble before you go the 'Mod' route. I'm telling you, in that particular price bracket and conversion quality, the Rosetta's are nice. I had a MOTU 896 HD a while back and when I got the Apogee Rosetta 800, I couldn't go back and haven't (Although I have went forward..... with an AD 16 X !) Seriously though, the Apogee stuff is not the tippy top, but it's a great Pro level interface and it is no slouch. You can't go wrong with one and I think anyone in the industry would tell you that. I'm actually debating between getting a Mytek and Prism Sound Orpheus as we speak, so I know how the converter game can get. If you can, try a few and send it back if it's not what you think. Reub.

For Sure Reub. I guess what I should have said is "The BLA Mods are overpriced for the level of improvement offered" which I believe is far short of the price tag. There is no way in Hell I would be anywhere near interested in having $2000 into a 002R (Or whatever it is, I think they're tippy top mod is over $1200).

That being said, I think it makes far more sense to have something like a DECENT interface that works with your DAW, and then buy a really nice converter, and run out digital into your interface. Even if that converter is also an interface, where as in Pro Tools you have to have a Digi Interface, so a lower end one is fine with a digital in to accept 8 channels or less from another unit with better quality.

Make sense? I'm so used to talking PT. ugh. I love it and hate it. It's a typical relationship. Oh well, I will be on HD2 in a couple months with Apogee stuff. Rosetta 800's I suppose..... I'm thinking of 4 of them and two Digital I/O's. 32 CHANNELS OF APOGEE. Oh my gosh..... my dream! The Lynx stuf isn't bad, I was able to check a couple out, but I really like the color of the Apogee stuff better. Maybe cause I'm used to it.

THERE IS ALWAYS THE NUMBER ONE FACTOR OF PREFERENCE

I prefer the Apogee Rosetta and AD DA series over the Lynx Aurora series as well...... And Digidesign ! Those interfaces are annoying and insulting, but they make tight software, you can never take that away from Digidesign ! The HD series converters of Digi is ok, but you'll definitely benefit with the Apogees...... especially with 32 Channels of Apogee I/O; You're doin' it over there !!! The MPC 4000 is on fire comin thru dem Apogeez !!! The Lynx stuff like the AES 16 and 16e cards are really tight if you are running AES or S/PDIF into them. The conversion quality is great and it does real time Sample Rate Conversion very well if you're doing the digital thing. Of course, you know all this stuff starts to get really subjective and preferential at a certain point, but I agree SMC, a decent interface and converter (s) is def the way to go. BTW, Best wishes on that 32 channel setup !!!

ReuBen KinKade wrote:I prefer the Apogee Rosetta and AD DA series over the Lynx Aurora series as well...... And Digidesign ! Those interfaces are annoying and insulting, but they make tight software, you can never take that away from Digidesign ! The HD series converters of Digi is ok, but you'll definitely benefit with the Apogees...... especially with 32 Channels of Apogee I/O; You're doin' it over there !!! The MPC 4000 is on fire comin thru dem Apogeez !!! The Lynx stuff like the AES 16 and 16e cards are really tight if you are running AES or S/PDIF into them. The conversion quality is great and it does real time Sample Rate Conversion very well if you're doing the digital thing. Of course, you know all this stuff starts to get really subjective and preferential at a certain point, but I agree SMC, a decent interface and converter (s) is def the way to go. BTW, Best wishes on that 32 channel setup !!!

so you think running the mpc 4000 through the analog input of apogee ensemble is better in sound, than running it via adat card?

Not necessarily. It's all a matter of how you like your sound at the time. The analog converters and signal path in the Ensemble will give you a good sound that is slightly 'colored' by the converters. The ADAT inputs will give you a more direct replication of what the MPC 4000 is capable of outputting from the ADAT outs. If you want a little bit of that 'Apogee coloration' on the stuff coming out of the MPC, the analog inputs on the Ensemble will take you there, which might be a preference, if you are doing Contemporary Pop, Hip Hop, and/or R&B . I personally would go with the ADAT option for keeping the sound as clean as possible and 'coloring' it up if I want later on, if you are operating it under 48 KHZ. My only drawback with the ADAT inputs on the Ensemble is that, like most other interfaces, they get halved in terms of the number of inputs at 88.2 or 96 KHZ. However, there are ways around that.

so you think running the mpc 4000 through the analog input of apogee ensemble is better in sound, than running it via adat card?

YES! I STRONGLY SAY SO!!!!

That being said, again, there is preference, but it is FACT that analouge out of the 4K through APOGEE converters will have a higher quality sound than running the 4K through it's own converters and out digital to your interface.

Here's why: The components in the signal path of the Apogee stuff is better. Hands down. Even down to the circuitboard materials. Secondly, the Apogee has better converters than the 4K.

Compare the price tags, and what you get/pay for..... it's very apparent. You pay more just for 8 channels of audio on an Apogee, than you do for a 4K maxed out. It's because ALL that loochie goes strictly into the audio end of the equipment, and not Audio + Sampling + sequencing + OS + Controls/buttons/pads/knobs, etc. Know what I mean?

Don't get me wrong, I love the 4K, and it doesn't sound 'BAD' digital out, or analoug out through consumer grade interfaces, but YES it will sound BETTER through better converters.

That being said, there still is preference in the end product sound.

While technically the clock, conversion, and sound is better on the Apogee, you may prefer the sound of it through a 003R or a Fireface or something...... But if you're trying to look at the facts, research technical performance of pre's (Signal to noise ratios and Total Harmonic Distortion), converters (How accurate are the samples and how stable is the converter, how accurately do the Samples Per Second reproduce the source), clocks (How accurate is the clock, how low is the Jitter rate), etc.... you'll see the specs are much better on the Apogee (as well as many others on the market in comparison to the 4K)

I know the last time I did adat out from the mpc to the adat in on my echo layla, it was extremely hot. Though I opted for the analog ins after trying to tame the signal, it ended up coming out pretty decent anyway.

SMC wrote:

so you think running the mpc 4000 through the analog input of apogee ensemble is better in sound, than running it via adat card?

YES! I STRONGLY SAY SO!!!!

That being said, again, there is preference, but it is FACT that analouge out of the 4K through APOGEE converters will have a higher quality sound than running the 4K through it's own converters and out digital to your interface.

Here's why: The components in the signal path of the Apogee stuff is better. Hands down. Even down to the circuitboard materials. Secondly, the Apogee has better converters than the 4K.

Compare the price tags, and what you get/pay for..... it's very apparent. You pay more just for 8 channels of audio on an Apogee, than you do for a 4K maxed out. It's because ALL that loochie goes strictly into the audio end of the equipment, and not Audio + Sampling + sequencing + OS + Controls/buttons/pads/knobs, etc. Know what I mean?

Don't get me wrong, I love the 4K, and it doesn't sound 'BAD' digital out, or analoug out through consumer grade interfaces, but YES it will sound BETTER through better converters.

That being said, there still is preference in the end product sound.

While technically the clock, conversion, and sound is better on the Apogee, you may prefer the sound of it through a 003R or a Fireface or something...... But if you're trying to look at the facts, research technical performance of pre's (Signal to noise ratios and Total Harmonic Distortion), converters (How accurate are the samples and how stable is the converter, how accurately do the Samples Per Second reproduce the source), clocks (How accurate is the clock, how low is the Jitter rate), etc.... you'll see the specs are much better on the Apogee (as well as many others on the market in comparison to the 4K)

Well how am i going to connect 8 outs og the mpc4k, apogee ensemble has 6 jacks input and 2 xlr's ! ?

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/pictures.php?picture=ensemble_rp_high

A debate about which converter is better technically is not much of an argument. The tech data suggest that the analog path is superior in the Ensemble. However, in terms of sonic preference, it is something that is a matter of what you like to hear and what your objectives are. Some people swear by a Solo 610 Mic pre; others hate it. So when SMC says that the analog is "better", remember he is referencing his own opinion, much like many others who might agree with him, while so many may disagree. Mpampouras, If I could give you one piece of advice to lead you on the path it would be to listen for yourself if at all possible. When it comes to the Ensemble, I both agree and disagree with SMC, depending on what I'm working on musically or audio-wise. For example, some actually don't like the Apogees because they 'color' the sound a little bit. Those people are generally audiophile purist who are looking for everything above the Nyquist principles. They generally get so overly consumed in audio quality, that they forget how to make a beat ! Never forget that the audio equipment biz is predominantly a 'hustle', keeping those who are not 'in the biz' constantly trying to find the 'holy grail' of audio, while the pro's are busy making the hitz! Trust me on this one: If you can, just get an Ensemble or RME or even Rosetta from a company that has a return policy, and listen for yourself. If you listen to me or SMC you may go crazy !!! In all fairness though, everyone on this thread has offered some pretty good points in the right direction, the rest is really up to you. Reub

Yes u have absolutely right. The thing is that here in my country these machines are too difficult to find in the music stores.
Thats why i m trying to get different positions from people who have actually heard these units.

The common thing is that they all say that ensemble's converters are far superior to Motu's.

I would have to agree. You really can't go wrong with an Ensemble over a Motu. If I had to pick one, it would be the Ensemble, hands down. I think most would agree. I hope that helps.

Mpamperous, I gotta believe the 4 channels of mic pre's are standard line level when phantom is off? I don't see a phantom switch, but it would seem odd to have pre's with no phantom, even on 'pro' gear, granted, I use 32 pre's in my studio without phantom in order to bring mic level down to line off a 400' run from the nightclub downstairs.

Blah blah blah, it should work fine, you'd just run a XLR to TRS F adapter to input those channels from the TRS's off your 4K (ASUMING they are line level without phantom)

Now, If you're going the route of $2000, why not get something more specifically designed for AD/DA being that is what's in question here.?

I'd go for a good used Rosetta 800 with the X Card for Firewire. Wouldn't that be more up your alley? More I/O's, A/D D/A on Dsubs and Optical. ?

I think that'd make good sense. More money by $700 new without the card, but I'd bet you could get a brand new 800 with the firewire card for what they want for the 800 alone. The card is only $355 brand new. Plus I'm sure you could haggle the price.

I never pay full retail on new pro gear, they will almost always haggle. If not, try somewhere else.

If they are an Apogee dealer, they have to buy a certain amount of Apogee every year, so even if they don't turn a profit off of some units, they're still moving product and meeting 'quota'.

Otherwise you could just grab the 800 by itself, get a Dsub cable (25 Pin DB25, reffered to as DSub cable, to 8 TRS). Plug the 8 TRS into the 8 out on the 4K, connect the DSub into the 800, and then run the optical out into your existing interface. Avoiding the Firewire card for the Apogee all together.

??????? Just a thought. You'd fall in love with the Apogee I almost guarantee it. They are incredibly 'sonically' rich.

Anyway. More opinion........ But along the route you're on, I'd lean towards the 800. Either a bit more money new, or the same or less used.

They are really solid units. Unless someone has really abused it, you should have no problems with a used one. It's not a Behringer that'll just pop a cap or blow a regulator at 100 hrs.

If you could get a Rosetta 800 with the X-Card, you'd have a very good interface that would open your ears up wide !!! Of course, without the mic pre's that are naturally on the Ensemble it may not be as utilitarian as the Rosetta, but it's hot though ! However, the Ensemble is fine. I think what SMC is saying is that if you are into making beatz, the Rosetta will just sound dynamically more accurate than the Ensemble, which is true. If you are into Hip hop, R&B, Pop, or any Electronic music, you will especially appreciate a Rosetta. The drums sound crazy coming through them. The Ensemble is just a little below that.

ReuBen KinKade wrote:If you could get a Rosetta 800 with the X-Card, you'd have a very good interface that would open your ears up wide !!! Of course, without the mic pre's that are naturally on the Ensemble it may not be as utilitarian as the Rosetta, but it's hot though ! However, the Ensemble is fine. I think what SMC is saying is that if you are into making beatz, the Rosetta will just sound dynamically more accurate than the Ensemble, which is true. If you are into Hip hop, R&B, Pop, or any Electronic music, you will especially appreciate a Rosetta. The drums sound crazy coming through them. The Ensemble is just a little below that.

well i m into trip-hop, downbeat & hip hop music. I do all the sampling in the mpc4k, i just want an interface that will have decent preamps for recording things like bass, violins, rhodes, electric guitars and of course voice.
The adat way out from the mpc4k is always a choice, though i think its interesting to find out if passing through analog (ensemble), will sound "better" in my ears. Also sync is an issue as i ll have to buy the worldclock card for 4k, or a midi interface for my mac.

However a rosetta and a firewire card i think goes way more financially than i can afford. I cant find any rosettas on ebay (used) under $1500..

I definately need to be flexible and of course i need the built-in preamps on the ensemble.
So i am continuing my research on web...