Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

MPC5000 reviews, bug reports and fellow user support on the most recent standalone, hardware MPC from Akai
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Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By b-righteous Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:49 am
But then you say it needs most of what is in OS 2(when you don't know exactly what is OS 2 yet) and 20 more functions. What 20 more functions are you talking about?


Well, that is based on what was revealed about the new OS from the website, video, and additional info in the forums. You are right that I don't know all the features coming. If there are more significant ones we will see. I'll rephrase. Based on the info so far, there are about twenty more features that I would like to see. 10 of those I feel are necessary for me to consider the 5k. Maybe some of those will already be in OS 2 when it's released.

But I will go out on a limb and say the MPC 5K current OS is as stable as the MPC 4000s current OS based off of feedback in the forums.


Not even. I know the 4k bugs and the valid 5k bugs are clear to see in the bug thread. 4k is way more stable. If you are talking about OS2, is that not still in beta? It takes usually a couple months to uncover all the monsters after more users test it in the real world. Based on the amount of new features, it is just plain wishful thinking to make that assumption at this early stage.
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Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By Askia Shaheed Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:26 am
b-righteous wrote:
But then you say it needs most of what is in OS 2(when you don't know exactly what is OS 2 yet) and 20 more functions. What 20 more functions are you talking about?


Well, that is based on what was revealed about the new OS from the website, video, and additional info in the forums. You are right that I don't know all the features coming. If there are more significant ones we will see. I'll rephrase. Based on the info so far, there are about twenty more features that I would like to see. 10 of those I feel are necessary for me to consider the 5k. Maybe some of those will already be in OS 2 when it's released.

But I will go out on a limb and say the MPC 5K current OS is as stable as the MPC 4000s current OS based off of feedback in the forums.


Not even. I know the 4k bugs and the valid 5k bugs are clear to see in the bug thread. 4k is way more stable. If you are talking about OS2, is that not still in beta? It takes usually a couple months to uncover all the monsters after more users test it in the real world. Based on the amount of new features, it is just plain wishful thinking to make that assumption at this early stage.


I can read the MPC 4K bug threads and still see that even with its latest OS, it is not completely stable. Based off of my use of the MPC 5000, I believe that it is as stable as the MPC 4000. So are you saying from your experience with the MPC 5000 that it isn't?

So, what are the 10-20 features you say are necessary for the 5K? We have 120 requests in the forum alone. What makes your ideas any better/necessary than the others? And you can wait forever and probably not have exactly what you want. So if the 5K doesn't meet your needs, than get an MPC 4000 or an MV-8800.

Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By b-righteous Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:57 pm
What makes your ideas any better/necessary than the others?


Who said that!

All but one of my ideas are a part of the 120+listed already :)
At least 5 of my top 10 are features you yourself wanted. :)

So if the 5K doesn't meet your needs, than get an MPC 4000 or an MV-8800.


That's the plan but I'm in no rush. Got tools I'm using now. Got into a bind and had to sell the 4k. If the 5k gets to an adequate level for me I will buy that instead when I'm ready.

And no, the 5k OS 1.2 is not on the level of 4k stability wise. Sorry.

Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By Beleevah Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:04 pm
Can you imagine how much RAM you would need if you were sampling at 96 or 192Khz frequency with 24 bit depth?

The bit depth used for the internal processing is important. 32 bit floating point is the pro norm AFAIK. The output can be filtered & dithered down to 16 bit again and still have benefited from the high density internal processing.

The only advantage of 24 bits is that you have extra headroom, say, about 48db more dynamic range. That's fine for laying down multitracks. And useful for sampling if it's coming from studio quality analog or a 24 bit source. But in both those cases, you can only benefit from the increased headroom by recording at a new lower reference level leaving yourself more of a margin before hitting 0dBfs.

However, if you mix to 24 bit at a lower ref level, the result would be a technically superb recording with great dynamic range, but it would sound very quiet. If you then limit/compress/normalize to get the sound level up to a commercially acceptable norm, all the benefits of 24 bit recording vanish out the window.

All the benefits of high sampling rate are similarly lost at mastering to CD. DVD Super Audio would be a different thing (if you have speakers that go over 20KHz). In that case, your dog or cat may appreciate it... or go beserk :)

Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By b-righteous Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:26 pm
The only advantage of 24 bits is that you have extra headroom


That is false. Higher bit rates also give more clarity and very noticeably so. Try 12 or 8bit versus 16 and you will see what I mean. In fact, the bit depth has a much more dramatic impact on sound quality than sample rate.

Can you imagine how much RAM you would need if you were sampling at 96 or 192Khz frequency with 24 bit depth?


Well, many here have a 4k and sample/load 24 bit files with 512 RAM and it does not seem to be an issue.
Last edited by b-righteous on Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By b-righteous Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:49 pm
All the benefits of high sampling rate are similarly lost at mastering to CD


Not true either. A high quality sample rate converter will preserve some of the benefits of the higher rate recording. Also, the sample rate largely affects internal processing like effects etc. Witch impact the final file. The same file recorded and processed at a higher sample rate will sound superior to it being recorded and processed at 44k as long as a high grade sample rate converter is used.

A higher bit depth gives a bigger (wider) snapshot of each sample. This gives a wider possible dynamic range in terms of volume but it does not just affect volume. That has come to be a common misconception. It affects all aspects of the sound. A higher sample rate gives you more samples per second so you have more snapshots of the sound. But each snapshot can cover more per sample with higher bit rates.

Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By acoustiventure Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:10 pm
b-righteous wrote:
I'm no dog and I can hear it.


Let me guess...you're a bat then! :lol:

24bit and 4times "oversampling", oh nice.
16bit and 44kHz, oh boy, my ears are hurting, what a noise...
OK, next time I'll ask for an MPC with 128bit ADC's and 1Gbit sampling rates... :mrgreen:

Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By b-righteous Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:35 pm
Funny, I had edited that out because I knew someone would say something. The difference is there and I can hear it. Not everyone can and not every speaker will reveal it. The difference is small enough that it takes an A/B comparison to tell.

Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By Beleevah Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:57 pm
My point about the amount of RAM needed for 24 bit 96 or 192KHz sampling was that an MPC5000 so equipped would need more than the 192MB it can currently handle. It could be argued that the MPC4000 with 512MB has no more RAM per se than the MPC5000 both working at maximum sampling frequencies and bit depths.

Bit depth is not related to frequency range or clarity. Each bit is providing about 6dB of depth from 0dBfs. The only reason older 12 or 8 bit systems sounded more 'grungy' was because they used crude low quality converters and preemphasis/deemphasis - the best available at the time but low quality by today's standards. If someone designed a 12 bit system around current technology, it would provide a relevant comparison.

No frequencies above 20KHz can occur in a 44.1kHz sampling rate environment. IMHO any benefits from a higher rate source are imaginary. Any form of sample rate conversion introduces artifacts into the signal path. Ideally it should be avoided.

Indeed, samples are snapshots - good analogy, the bigger the bit depth the bigger the snapshot. But it is only offering an increase in the number of bytes between 0dBfs and the noise floor - the strength of digital being that high signal levels require much less processing than low level signals. This is more or less inverse to the analog situation.

But...as long as you're happy with your sound.......... 8)
Last edited by Beleevah on Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By Askia Shaheed Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:50 am
b-righteous wrote:
What makes your ideas any better/necessary than the others?


Who said that!

All but one of my ideas are a part of the 120+listed already :)
At least 5 of my top 10 are features you yourself wanted. :)

So if the 5K doesn't meet your needs, than get an MPC 4000 or an MV-8800.


That's the plan but I'm in no rush. Got tools I'm using now. Got into a bind and had to sell the 4k. If the 5k gets to an adequate level for me I will buy that instead when I'm ready.

And no, the 5k OS 1.2 is not on the level of 4k stability wise. Sorry.


You spend quite a few hours each day talking about a machine that is inadequate for your needs. And if the 4K is so great with a superior OS, why bother looking at the 5K?

Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By b-righteous Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:27 pm
Thats funny coming from you. The same cat who has spent way more hours here than I ever will and have raided the 4k forums and JJ forums when you used to hate on his OS. What you doin at MV Nation?

To be honest, you do have a point because its getting boring around here. I'll be looking at what's up a couple months down the road and I'll check back.
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Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By Joidibeats Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:49 pm
b-righteous wrote:Thats funny coming from you. The same cat who has spent way more hours here than I ever will and have raided the 4k forums and JJ forums when you used to hate on his OS. What you doin at MV Nation?


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Re: Export at 24 bit, and Record at 24 bit?

By Askia Shaheed Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:21 pm
b-righteous wrote:Thats funny coming from you. The same cat who has spent way more hours here than I ever will and have raided the 4k forums and JJ forums when you used to hate on his OS. What you doin at MV Nation?

To be honest, you do have a point because its getting boring around here. I'll be looking at what's up a couple months down the road and I'll check back.

You are talking to a guy that has owned all the products that I write about...which includes the MPC 4000, MV-8000, and the 2500 w/ JJ OS2. As far as the MV Nation, I frequent the Fantom G thread...(*whisper* cuz I own that too). :P Regardless....you still spend numerous hours talking about a machine that you feel is inferior.
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