Should Akai charge a fee for future OS updates?

Roland has always been about making money off of overpriced accessories....

To be fair rebranded $30 memory and $200 for laptop slimdrive makes Numark more than guilty of what you accuse. My old 4000 didn't come fully loaded either.

Akai has been doing this for 22 years plus and still developing MPCs, the premiere drum pad oriented workstations to date.

To be accurate you're actually talking about 3 different companies over that time span. Akai (MPC up to the 4000), Grande Holdings(MPC-1000) , Numark (2500 to present). The MPC brand may have survived but the company philosophy is drastically different.

Feature updates are a part of keeping a product competitve during it's life cycle. $199 to increase the functionality of a $2500 machine. Paid OS from a 3rd party is one thing - charging for what is expected will lead only to piracy and brand abandonment. For now Akai's primary competitor is Roland. If your most immediate competitor is doing for free what you charge $200 dollars for , customers will reject on the following premise.

The 5000 is $2500 base but let's look at the whole picture in the context of paid updates.

$2500 base
$150 memory
$200 CD drive
...These are all one-time charges but when you add in updates the scenario takes a turn for the worse.

With just one update the total cost rises to $3000+ (not incl. tax/shipping) but gets worse with every new release if you want full functionality from the the machine. Buyers will see the 5000 as an infinite money pit.

Now figure that newer 5000s will have the newest updates included. This will breed resentment from early buyers. If the newest update isn't included with newly bought 5000s, it will simply die on the shelves or get returned when the buyer finds out about the hidden cost.

There is no upside to the scenario you laid out.

Well i understand what the dude said about paid update,and i agree somehow,but thing is mpc 5000 should been a way different machine if they didn't rushed out the way they did.I want my shit to be updated just like every user of this machine,even thou mpc 4000 has better operating system i believe that 5000 is better hardware maybe am mistaken maybe not.I like my machine the way it is i would love to have key group and some other features that 4k has but i don't want to get into all that.My point is mpc 5000 is not selling as akai wished and that's the fact,and if roland comes with mv 9000 or whatever they coming out with and if and that's only if they improve their sequencer and i believe they will guess what's going to happen akai is gonna loose sales and loose customers so then they won't have choice to come out with an update with new features to keep their sales going.So this is not just my opinion that just how biz works.Like i said before if they don't step their game up roland will roll over them that's future.The reason i picked mpc over mv is because of the sequencer and besides i don't like all in one machines i have bunch a equipment and thanks god for my daw so i didn't need it.I've been mpc fan for ever but if they going to choose profit over professionalism i will have to find other alternatives.
And one more thing we're the ones buying their products so they should deliver as we expected.

ToOxSicK wrote: i don't like all in one machines

Not challenging your decision in any way....

8 Audio tracks
Sequencer
Sampler
Synth
Audio CD burning

Wouldn't those combined features make the 5000 an "all-in-one" machine as well- if not more so ?

moyphee wrote:

ToOxSicK wrote: i don't like all in one machines

Not challenging your decision in any way....

8 Audio tracks
Sequencer
Sampler
Synth
Audio CD burning

Wouldn't those combined features make the 5000 an "all-in-one" machine as well- if not more so ?

yes but mv doesn't have mpc swing and i don't care about hd recording cause i have yamaha digital mixer that cost me sht loaded.Which also reminds me that expansion board for mv was discontinued and on 5000 i already have all of that.

This is a crazy idea to charge for an os update when you already spent 2000€ for the machine !

There is no upside to the scenario you laid out.

There is an upside you are just missing it. You do know that in 3 years, there will be no more OS updates for the MPC 5000? There will be no more updates for the MV-8800, Fantom, Motif, M3, etc. These items will most likely be replaced with something else. But if there was a way to expand the shelf life like an OS update you pay for...its a win-win for all. $200-$400 for a feature-rich OS update...or spending $2000-$3000 for a new highend MPC..which, by the way...you will have people still complaining that it needs more functions.

I talked about all the MPCs that have OS upgrades you have to pay for (MPC 60, 1000, 2500, and 3000). If you talk with any of the users that purchased these upgrades, I am sure that will say the will not go back to the free OS.

tomazzzi wrote:This is a crazy idea to charge for an os update when you already spent 2000€ for the machine !

http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~mpc1000/mpc2500/

I thought just like you several years ago. Now look what JJ has done with the MPC 2500/1000:

1. keygroup sampler
2. 32 audio tracks
3. real time pitch shift
4. real time timestretch
5. Non-destructive sample chopping
6. 300,000 events per sequence
7. Sample layer crossfade
8. ADSR envelopes
9. Protamento
10. Chords function
11. Pad after touch
12. Global program edit
13. Rind modulation

There is actually much more but I am tired of typing. Without this paid OS update, the MPC 2500 and 1000 would probably not receive any more OS updates. With all these features, MPC 2500 users do not have to rush out and purchase an MPC 5000.

Askia Shaheed wrote:I thought just like you several years ago. Now look what JJ has done with the MPC 2500/1000:

1. keygroup sampler
2. 32 audio tracks
3. real time pitch shift
4. real time timestretch
5. Non-destructive sample chopping
6. 300,000 events per sequence
7. Sample layer crossfade
8. ADSR envelopes
9. Protamento
10. Chords function
11. Pad after touch
12. Global program edit
13. Rind modulation

There is actually much more but I am tired of typing. Without this paid OS update, the MPC 2500 and 1000 would probably not receive any more OS updates. With all these features, MPC 2500 users do not have to rush out and purchase an MPC 5000.

How does his real time pitch shift and real time timestretch work? This sounds like some stuff i was hoping for

Third party commercial support is entirely different from Akai continually reaching into a buyers pocket. The post I submitted is based on what you actually said initially. Your now blurring the lines again. JJ does not have any obligations whatsoever to the Akai user base, Akai/Numark does.

This is exactly what you said.

I think Akai should charge its users for implementing feature requests in future operating systems. We, MPC users, have been very demanding. I think Akai only owes you a solid OS for the functions initially advertised. Anything beyond that, should be paid for.

There's a huge difference between "I should be charged" and I'm willing to pay". To take (or retreat to) the position that a company is entitled to provide a bare minimum in functionality and then place a financial burden upon one's self is highly suspect IMO. I can't help but to think there a specific purpose for floating such an idea amongst users ( current or prospective) with such specifics.

In any case such a charge would signal financial desperation , start rumors of bankruptcy , and a fear of Akai's demise- or the least the premature death of the 5000. All of which are irreversible in reference to the company's image. The MPC-5000 has slumped in sales as it is . I don't think Akai would risk such a thing. Then again, company arrogance does have it's influence.

BTW- $200 to $400 for an update is torrent or P2P file waiting to happen.

moyphee wrote:Third party commercial support is entirely different from Akai continually reaching into a buyers pocket. The post I submitted is based on what you actually said initially. Your now blurring the lines again. JJ does not have any obligations whatsoever to the Akai user base, Akai/Numark does.

This is exactly what you said.

I think Akai should charge its users for implementing feature requests in future operating systems. We, MPC users, have been very demanding. I think Akai only owes you a solid OS for the functions initially advertised. Anything beyond that, should be paid for.

There's a huge difference between "I should be charged" and I'm willing to pay". To take (or retreat to) the position that a company is entitled to provide a bare minimum in functionality and then place a financial burden upon one's self is highly suspect IMO. I can't help but to think there a specific purpose for floating such an idea amongst users ( current or prospective) with such specifics.

In any case such a charge would signal financial desperation , start rumors of bankruptcy , and a fear of Akai's demise- or the least the premature death of the 5000. All of which are irreversible in reference to the company's image. The MPC-5000 has slumped in sales as it is . I don't think Akai would risk such a thing. Then again, company arrogance does have it's influence.

BTW- $200 to $400 for an update is torrent or P2P file waiting to happen.

very good points.... and it will definitely, more then likely, become a torrent

the only thing about sales is that, this whole economy is declining at the moment, so its hard just to judge the 5000 off of that(not saying you cant, just saying its hard to)

4dahaterz wrote:
How does his real time pitch shift and real time timestretch work? This sounds like some stuff i was hoping for

They work based on your samples to adjust the tempo of different samples

ToOxSicK wrote:

4dahaterz wrote:
How does his real time pitch shift and real time timestretch work? This sounds like some stuff i was hoping for

They work based on your samples to adjust the tempo of different samples

oh ok.... i think i got ya

4dahaterz wrote:

moyphee wrote:Third party commercial support is entirely different from Akai continually reaching into a buyers pocket. The post I submitted is based on what you actually said initially. Your now blurring the lines again. JJ does not have any obligations whatsoever to the Akai user base, Akai/Numark does.

This is exactly what you said.

I think Akai should charge its users for implementing feature requests in future operating systems. We, MPC users, have been very demanding. I think Akai only owes you a solid OS for the functions initially advertised. Anything beyond that, should be paid for.

There's a huge difference between "I should be charged" and I'm willing to pay". To take (or retreat to) the position that a company is entitled to provide a bare minimum in functionality and then place a financial burden upon one's self is highly suspect IMO. I can't help but to think there a specific purpose for floating such an idea amongst users ( current or prospective) with such specifics.

In any case such a charge would signal financial desperation , start rumors of bankruptcy , and a fear of Akai's demise- or the least the premature death of the 5000. All of which are irreversible in reference to the company's image. The MPC-5000 has slumped in sales as it is . I don't think Akai would risk such a thing. Then again, company arrogance does have it's influence.

BTW- $200 to $400 for an update is torrent or P2P file waiting to happen.

very good points.... and it will definitely, more then likely, become a torrent

the only thing about sales is that, this whole economy is declining at the moment, so its hard just to judge the 5000 off of that(not saying you cant, just saying its hard to)

That is not a good point. It doesn't make any sense. He is only concerned with who profits from the OS and he doesn't even use MPCs. Read his previous posts in these forums. moyphee's only purpose here is to see the demise of the Akai brand because he prefers Roland products like an MV for some odd reason.

The MPC 5000 does not have minimum functions. It has numerous features that previous MPCs and MPC-clones don't have. The only feature that it really needs is a keygroup type of sampler. Do I have a specifc pupose for floating around these ideas? Of course I do. I want to see the complete operating system of the Fusion in the MPC 5000. I seriously doubt this is an Akai/Numark/Alesis plan. I am sure this will never happen. But I would pay for such an update. If you don't want that type of update, then simply don't buy it.

$200 to $400 is currently being charged for OS updates for the MPC 60, 1000, 2500, and 3500. It seems you missed that part of my post. Torrent or P2P will not be an issue if the OS is applied like JJ has done. Each MPC has a unique product ID. The OS passwords JJ generates will only work for that specific MPC. This JJ OS operation, has done amazing things with the MPC 1000/2500. The MPC 1000 was released in 2003. 2009 is approaching and JJ is still releasing OS updates. Have you seen what JJ OS 2XL adds? The other alternative is to continue to get free OS updates with bug fixes over the next 2-3 years but receive no new or innovative features beyond that. If that is what you want...then what? I'll tell you. Visit the MPC 4000 forum and read about their wishes for an open sourced OS so someone can continue its development. Then read the JJ OS forums and see how excited they are about the new OS. An OS that wouldn't be possible if they didn't pay for it.

$200 to $400 is currently being charged for OS updates for the MPC 60, 1000, 2500, and 3500.

I seriously cannot believe you actually wrote that.


Anyway let me first state that most of my post concerning the MV have mostly been to dispell misinformation spread by you in a quest to convince the world that the 5000 is better than any and everything. Even in this thread you lack the courage to argue your point on merit and fact. What's most disappointing is that I don't believe that even you believe what you write. You just can't admit that you are or even can be wrong.

Again, JJ and others have no obligation to Akai users - Numark/Akai does!

As far my owner ship and use- I own several genuine Akai units including an S-6000. I don't own any Numark made samplers. In any case, arguing a business practice has nothing to do with who's side your on or what you use.

*The last time you questioned what I owned you were humiliated. Let's not go that route again-but i will indeed respond if called to.

Be a man for once just debate an issue like a mature adult if at all possible.

Askia Shaheed wrote:
That is not a good point. It doesn't make any sense. He is only concerned with who profits from the OS and he doesn't even use MPCs. Read his previous posts in these forums. moyphee's only purpose here is to see the demise of the Akai brand because he prefers Roland products like an MV for some odd reason.

The MPC 5000 does not have minimum functions. It has numerous features that previous MPCs and MPC-clones don't have. The only feature that it really needs is a keygroup type of sampler. Do I have a specifc pupose for floating around these ideas? Of course I do. I want to see the complete operating system of the Fusion in the MPC 5000. I seriously doubt this is an Akai/Numark/Alesis plan. I am sure this will never happen. But I would pay for such an update. If you don't want that type of update, then simply don't buy it.

$200 to $400 is currently being charged for OS updates for the MPC 60, 1000, 2500, and 3500. It seems you missed that part of my post. Torrent or P2P will not be an issue if the OS is applied like JJ has done. Each MPC has a unique product ID. The OS passwords JJ generates will only work for that specific MPC. This JJ OS operation, has done amazing things with the MPC 1000/2500. The MPC 1000 was released in 2003. 2009 is approaching and JJ is still releasing OS updates. Have you seen what JJ OS 2XL adds? The other alternative is to continue to get free OS updates with bug fixes over the next 2-3 years but receive no new or innovative features beyond that. If that is what you want...then what? I'll tell you. Visit the MPC 4000 forum and read about their wishes for an open sourced OS so someone can continue its development. Then read the JJ OS forums and see how excited they are about the new OS. An OS that wouldn't be possible if they didn't pay for it.

You got some good points as well, except for the price. The price even for the older MPC model updates are ridiculous, and this is due to "my favorite word" in this thread is simply ECONOMICS. Which is what make things keep moving in the world. Unless Roger Linn put his hand on it, like he did in some of those updates. Then, I might shelve out the dollars, but that $hit better be close to flawless or we will have issues.

But you and Moyphee, yall got issues against one another, yall should work those out

Akai has no obligation to put a Fusion inside the MPC 5000. Just like Roland has no obligation to put the Fantom G inside the MV or vice versa. So let's have an adult/mature conversation. If you (Moyphee) believe these companies have an obligation to combine these products as you implied, there is no point on talking about this...

Since they don't have an obligation to significantly expand these products to include every feature requested by these forums...I suggest we pay for them IF we want them.

I went slightly overboard with the $400 price tag of the other updates:

MPC 60 upgrade to MPC 3000 - $195
MPC 1000/2500 upgrade to JJ OS 2XL- $162
MPC 2000XL - no further devlopment/support
MPC 3000 upgrade to Mansell OS - $199-$314
MPC 4000 - no further development/support
MPC 5000- OS update coming soon. However, in 2-3 years I suspect there will be no further development/support based upon the 2000Xl and 4000 (and just like the MV-8000/8800)

The Fusion OS update ($400) I am looking for:
1. Four integrated synthesis types: Sample Playback, Virtual Analog, FM and Physical Modeling
2. Import Akai legacysample formats
3. Multi-timbral mode for layering and keyboard splits
4. 24 bit hard disk recording
5. Navigation short-cuts
6. Clip board function
7. Potamento
8. Program tuning w/different tuning types
9. 8 envelopes / 8 LFOs
10. Software editor for creating programs/sample format conversion
11. Fusion sample editing types
12. Fusion quantization types
13. Different loop types
14. Velocity curve types
15. Different classifications of Arp types/patterns
16. Arp playback modes: Local, Midi, Local + MIDI
17. Arp Latch Types: Latch and Mask
18. Arp note ranges
19. Chords function
20. Modulation matrix

There are actually 1-2 dozen more features listed in te Fusion's Manual. $195-$300 for this type of OS is more than a fair price based upon the current prices of the MPC upgrades listed above. But these upgrades are not on the same level as a Fusion type upgrade....not even close. $399 is a respectable price. It doesn't matter if the OS is done by Akai or a third party. Based upon the attitude of some of you forums members...it would probably be best to market the OS under a different name.

As far as dude...I am an MPC user. He isn't. But he follows me around in every thread about MPCs.